Chris Dreyer

Branding. We talk about it a lot on the show and with good reason, too. There are a ton of great lawyers out there, but when it’s time for a client to decide who they want to represent them, the only thing separating you from the other lawyer is your brand. And this is why my guest today didn’t play around. When it came to refining what his brand should represent.

Eric Chaffin

Yeah, I think, um, I think for us, you know, we really were very deliberate in how we formed our firm and certainly our core value of “doing good by doing right”. And, uh, and so that by nature, just, you know, the, the motto or the principle of “doing good by doing right” is, um, it, it really creates a brand in and of itself. And, uh, and certainly a good reminder for us daily in terms of how we work with our clients and really what we’re about as a firm. And so it comes pretty naturally. Um, certainly at different times we’ve been really focused on the direct marketing, uh, but certainly from brand perspective, it’s something that’s always in the back of our minds, but certainly on the forefront now, in terms of what we’re doing as a firm.

Chris Dreyer

My guest today is Eric Chaffin. Eric is the co-founder and managing partner of Chaffin Luhana, a plaintiff’s only PI firm operating throughout New York city, Pittsburgh and West Virginia. Eric and Chaffin Luhana have established themselves as the go-to plaintiff’s firm and has the success record to back it up, recovering over $1 billion over the course of the firm’s operation. Join us as we discuss what builds a successful brand, how you can motivate a millennial team and why, when it comes to referrals, Eric takes care of his peers just as well as his clients. That’s coming up on The Rankings Podcast, the show where founders, entrepreneurs, and elite personal injury attorneys share their inspiring stories about what they did to get to the top and what keeps them there. I’m Chris Dreyer, stay with us. Part of Eric’s mission is to “do good by doing right”. And it’s a motivation that’s heavily influenced and driven Chaffin Luhana’s brand. I wanted to talk about some of the initiatives, the firm uses to strengthen that brand.

Eric Chaffin

Yeah. You know, I think, um, I think, I think the big thing for us is, and it’s for any firm, I think you have to really figure out what’s genuine and authentic for you, and that can work really well. And so for us, so we tend to do community events is something our team really rallies behind, uh, we’ll do three or four of those a year. Uh, you know, I love sports. And so this past fall, we did one around the New York City Marathon with the Reef Foundation, for example. Uh, currently in the face of the pandemic, we saw a need to really help people and feed people. And so we pretty quickly organized to give away 10,000 sandwiches, uh, within six days actually, when we had the concept, we did it. And, uh, so we have a phenomenal team that can execute very efficiently, both on the foundation level because we have a foundation, but then through the firm as well. And so really proud of that. And, um, you know, from that just comes really natural marketing and, and certainly, uh, our commercials, everything just really naturally flow from some of that. And, uh, because it’s authentically who we are.

Chris Dreyer

Do you find not only from the marketing standpoint, that you’re, that it brings like your team together? And that there’s a cultural aspect of community, like from it?

Eric Chaffin

Yeah. You know, you have to be deliberate still. I mean, there’s a natural comradery that comes from that. Um, but of course, you know, th there has to be things to sustain everyone in between those, those points. Cause you know, those are three or four times a year that we do these bigger events. But yeah, it, it, it is natural. Um, it’s something that starts with us in terms of recruiting. Uh, we do a lot of recruiting on LinkedIn for example, and different places. And, and part of that is to help the millennial generation, in particular, understand what our brand is. Um, you know, I find a lot of people will say like, you know, my age, you know, I’m, I’m pushing 50 now unfortunately, I wish I was younger. But, uh, you know, a lot of people, my age will say like, gosh, you know, I hate working with millennials. You know, I don’t understand them. They want to just, you know, be happy and have lots of friends and not really work so hard. And, and I find that’s not true, but I find is, is they’re not as focused on money, but if you can give them a cause to work for, um, they can get behind that cause very strongly. And so in some way, I actually think they’ve got it right. Um, you know, you know, my, my father’s generation was, you know, work, work, work, put your head down and work, you know, not focused on, on various other things in life. Then millennials, I think have a lot of general focus, but then also if you can give them a cause they will rally behind it work tremendously hard. It’s not so much about the compensation. It is. I mean, you know, you want to, you want people that are hungry, but at the same time, like they want that cause. And so for us, it really works well to pull the team together because we do have those causes throughout the year.

Chris Dreyer

Yeah. And one of the things, you know, so I work with ton, ton of millennials, of course, digital marketing. One of the things I find is it just in general that money isn’t the biggest motivating factor. You know, you give someone a raise or, but, but if you give them more responsibilities or purpose, then I find that it really has an impact. And it sounds like it, that what you’re experiencing as well. Yeah.

Eric Chaffin

Yeah, definitely. I mean, the purpose is a big part of it, obviously. Um, you know, they want professional and personal growth. And so I think, you know, having a firm that, that really works at a high level professionally in complex cases, but then also has that personal level where you’re connected with the clients and then also the public causes that social consciousness. Um, we find we really married the two together. And so, um, we’re excited to offer that to our team. And, uh, certainly a big part of it is the team itself. I mean, I, you know, I can’t take, uh, you know, the, the credit for a lot of what we do a lot of it’s the team and, and being able to build what we do. And, um, you know, we’re, we’re unique in that we have project managers at our firm. You know, people who, yeah, get in and work on projects like this much like other businesses, for example. Um, unlike, you know, a lot of traditional law firms. And so because of that, I think we’re more innovative in terms of how we approach things and, uh, it keeps her fresh approach. And so overall it’s just a, it’s a really good part of the team.

Chris Dreyer

That that’s a really interesting point, you know? So a lot of times they… you have like an a for a business, you have like an account manager, that’s like the client facing, and then you have, um, then you have a project manager for the legal field. And it seems like it’s kind of a blended role. So you found that just the approach was a separate, it was, was really effective. I think that’s very interesting.

Eric Chaffin

It is. Yeah. I mean, we certainly have traditional paralegals. We have different things, but, um, you know, we have a, uh, full-time community, community outreach coordinator in our Pittsburgh office, because we do so many different community projects there. She really does project work. Um, and then we have two other project managers that work on national projects and regional projects with us. And, um, it’s sometimes their business operation projects sometimes are client facing projects at other times they’re community facing projects. And so, yeah. Um, you know, we just, we work in Asana, we work on Slack. I mean, there’s different things that we do that are more like, um, different, you know, marketing operation businesses. And, uh, and we find it really effective. I mean, it’s just, it’s, it’s been really helpful for us.

Chris Dreyer

With a marketing strategy there are plenty of ways to measure your ROI. You can look at the impact on your intake or even conversions on your site, but when you’re building your brand through different community initiatives, how do you measure its success?

Eric Chaffin

It’s um, it’s interesting. It’s um, you know, I think for us, so, just to step back for a second and, um, you know, I think the, you know, we’ll do mass tort marketing, for example. And so of course, a lot of that is direct response because you can’t really build a national brand that’s sustaining, because we don’t have the budget of like a target or a Walmart, for example, right. And so we can’t be in every household. I think the closest model, that’s maybe a Sokolov model, for example. And, and frankly, because there’s so much negative press against attorneys, I think that can actually backfire against you if you’re actually out that much. And so even on mass torts, we’re very deliberate in terms of what projects we’re on television about. And we are on national television, direct response on Zantac, for example, or other, other products that we’re heavily involved in. Um, in terms of our regional brand. I think that’s really where we’re talking about today and that’s more in a, in the PI market, in the Pittsburgh area. And, um, Yeah, we find a lot of people try to replicate us. They’ll do something that’s more, uh, it’s not as authentic in terms of what they’re doing. Um, in terms of us and what we look for is, um, we certainly look at impressions, for example, uh, we look for engagement, um, you know, whether that’s a billboard ads or TV ads, radio ads, um, we’re trying to engage everyone at and some level. And, um, and so, you know, on 10,000 sandwiches, for example, I was, I was going to try to pull up the statistics here. I don’t have them in front of me, but. Um, you know, we had literally hundreds of thousands of impressions. Uh, we had, I think it was 150,000 different engagements around that project. Uh, we had people, um, I think there were upwards of 700 people, uh, through one of the people, one of the groups that were working with, where they were engaged as people that actually participated in the event itself. Um, you know, we work with Oakmont bakery on that project. So we engage local businesses. And when we engage the local businesses, we’re able to help them with their brands. But of course, that aligned us with our brand and built some brand credibility and trust. And so just by nature, uh, I think working with those small businesses, a lot of, a lot of plaintiffs firms say,” Oh, I don’t want to work local businesses. That’s who I sue”. And that’s not our philosophy at all. Our philosophy is, is let’s engage in the community, help each other, help the public. And then I think the most important thing from our perspective on that particular project for example, is, uh, we actually had people showing up at the event to pick up sandwiches, not just for their families, but to actually take them back to senior centers, take them back to porches, to drop off and leave at families homes. And so to us that’s the ultimate engagement is we actually took members of the public who aren’t a business. And actually have them doing good for other people in their community. And that was all through something we started. And so from our perspective, that’s really how we measure it. Um, we think that we build a stronger connection with the communities by doing that. And, uh, and it’s really authentic to who we are and we’re doing good in the process. And, um, and so that’s really how we look at it.

Chris Dreyer

Yeah. And that’s incredible. And a lot of people, when they talk about a brand, they talk about awareness, engagement, consideration. The other way that I hear it is know like, and trust. So, so you’re building that, that trust and that likeability by doing goodwill. You talked about Asana and you talked about Slack, so we use Trello and Slack, so we’re really close. What about, what about your CRM? Your choice of, of like your customer relationship management tool? Is there, do you use that? Do you, I mean, is it an effective tool in your toolkit? Is it a focus?

Eric Chaffin

Yeah. So, so a couple of things I think, um, one is, you know, in terms of today in the face of the pandemic, I think it’s critically important for any firm to really have a digital platform of some type. I think having it in the cloud is particularly important. Obviously security is an issue. So you want to pick a platform that’s, uh, abundantly secure. Um, you know, there are many platform choices out there. Um, you know, I think some of the leading ones, for example, a TrialWorks is one we work with for a while. Um, we use the remote desktop platform. It’s actually now going to a cloud based system. Uh, we’re actually not moving to that system. We’re actually moving our office over to Litify. We’re in the process of doing that now. And, uh, you know, there’s pluses and minuses to all these things. I think the biggest thing for us is, is that, you know, we’re focused on data. Um, and so from our perspective, um, yeah, we’re, we’re looking at it and we wanted it to be interfaced on Salesforce. Cause it’s, you know, just Salesforce is, is everywhere. Um, you know, we actually were on Tableau before Salesforce purchased or acquired Tableau. Once that happened, actually drove our decision to change over from TrialWorks to Litify, frankly. And a lot of people are like, how did that happen? Like that doesn’t make any sense. And um, but that’s just how sort of data oriented we were is we were billing Tableau to sit on TrialWorks and now we’re like, wait a second. Salesforce is completely integrated, very easy. And so that’s where we’re going. So I think that’s important. Um, you know, and I think the one thing that I think just as businesses, I think we all have to be tuned into is, you know, if you’re, if you’re working on cases and complex cases nationally, like we are, I think it’s two things. I think it’s, one is direct to consumer, which we do a lot of. And I think we’re very unique in that our firm will not only, uh, litigate the cases, we’re actually, and, you know, the top two leadership in Zantec, for example, my partner, Roopal, negotiated with the defense counsel, something, you know, many of the initial 16 organizing orders with other counsel, uh, on the plaintiff’s side. But, but on top of litigating them, we also advertise for our cases. And so we have that business mindset as well. And certainly that client service is a big part of, of it. And so we think of it so direct to consumer then also business to business because we have big referral sources around the country that we work with. And so in the face of the pandemic, we had some of our highest referral weeks yet, uh, because the litigation’s we’re involved in. And so we really want a system that not only will work well with our end consumers, but then also work with our referral sources as well. And so having really strong reporting functions, for example, and be able to give optics to our co-counsel. As to exactly where cases are and what the status are, as well as like in Zantec for example, there’s a very large census that’s building for the clients themselves. And to be able to build those census data within our CRM platform is really important. And so we really look at it from soup to nuts in terms of, of how our CRM is interacting. And frankly, yeah. There isn’t one that really does everything that we want to do. So we do a lot of customization as well. And, uh, so, so, uh, you know, it’s a long-winded way of saying that, that we try to look at it as a big picture, but then, you know, even as a managing partner to understand that the details of what’s going on and really be able to understand from, you know, the marketing to the actual encase disbursement is really important. I think

Chris Dreyer

I, I that’s, there are tons of nuggets in there. Eric. I can pick your brain probably for an hour here. I would say. You know, one of the things that you mentioned is you’re, you’re focused not only on, on the consumer, but also your peers. They are an extremely valuable lead source. And when you’re actually practicing the work and you show that expertise, They want to get maximum value for the good cases they get. So they want to work with someone like you.

Eric Chaffin

Yeah, absolutely. Look, it’s, it’s true. And I think for us, I think what we do is much different than many other firms that are doing referrals is, um, you know, we… all of our referral sources, the first thing we say to them is, Hey, here’s how much we’re investing personally, as a firm. That’s, you know, the, the partners equity capital in advertising for these projects, that’s how much we believe in them. And, uh, and so I think that goes a long ways with our referral partners first and foremost, the second part is, is we look at it and say, you know, these are obviously, um, referral sources, but then they have clients as well. And so we have many of them that have regional practices. They invest a lot in building their brand on a regional basis to make sure they have a strong brand equity. With their clients and their local areas. And so we want to look after that for them as well. We want to make sure that, you know, if we have a client from Kansas, it’s coming to us for their referral source, that they get top-line service. And if there’s any issues and communication issues, the local firm, as well as us are plugged in very quickly, understand that and be able to address it. And, uh, so we want to make our referral partners look good. And I think having a system that gives transparency across our team is critically important to that.

Chris Dreyer

That that’s truly unique. The transparency component. I many of the, the attorneys I talked to, they, they pass off a referral and that’s, that’s the last time they hear about it until it’s settling. So I find that really, really intriguing. The other thing is a lot of times. We’ll we’ll see a firm and they’ll get a one-star review and most of the time it wasn’t from the service. It was like, it was like, Hey, I don’t do, I don’t handle that case. See you later. Sure. And then individual leave a bad review. But if you just even have a good experience or have a partner like yourself, that you can transfer a case to then yeah, it can bring value to the local SEO.

Eric Chaffin

Yeah, it definitely does. Yeah. Yeah. And I think even us, I mean, we’ve, we’ve certainly, um, we have all had you can’t be in business and, uh, you know, I say you can’t be a good trial lawyer without losing cases. You know, if you try cases, you’re gonna lose some. I learned that as a young prosecutor, but you know, the same way with clients. I mean, you, you can’t have many clients to be successful without having some unhappy ones. And I think the important thing there is, you know, certainly to engage them, uh, you know, as much as you can. So publicly say a response or provide a response, but the ones we do see, I think most frequently for us or anybody, else’s where someone thinks that you’ll take on every possible case. And you know, our philosophy is doing “good by doing right” is really, Hey, there are some cases. Then in our view are just not going to be profitable for the client. When I say profitable, I don’t mean just economically. I mean, emotionally as well, sometimes the emotional toll on litigation is so significant. And, uh, and so we really look at it from that perspective, have a conversation with the clients themselves, as well as the referring counsel, but yeah, you’re right. I mean, you know, we, we, um, we do seem unique device litigation and we post, uh, some, some blogs and legal news on legal examiner, for example. And so we get calls from attorneys, uh, quite often on projects and certainly can talk through with them, you know, the aspects of it, what we’ve seen and whether it would make sense to pursue it or not. And so then the client actually gets an educated discussion about the particular issue versus now we can’t help you with that and they just get turned away. And, uh, so it does lead to a more satisfied client experience on that level as well.

Chris Dreyer

Yeah, that’s very smart. So I I’ve got to pivot here, Eric, I got to ask you an SEO nerd question here. So in the past you used to have OhioValleyPIlawyers.com. You know, was your decision to merge that site with Chaffin Luhana more of an SEO strategy, or was that a bigger picture brand strategy?

Eric Chaffin

Yeah. So let me step back for a second. So, you know, I started in the digital space, um, with SEO in particular, um, probably back, you know, I was at Seeger Weiss, and then I was at, uh, you know, Bernstein Liebhard in New York. And, um, and so, you know, I, my focus then, which was probably 2008, 2010 was really SEO. And so, you know, Ropal and I, uh, really perfected SEO as attorneys, frankly, um, doing, uh, keywords off of denture adhesive and zinc. And, uh, you know, we settled about $140 million in cases. And the first, you know, year and a half, two years of the firm, which was all pretty much cases driven by SEO, combined with some organic growth, like Good Morning, America, different press we did around because we were litigating the cases again. You’re like using that with SEO is a really powerful strategy. And so that’s where we came from. And so SEO has always been part of our strategy at some level. Of course is, is we know as things progress, it becomes more diluted on some levels because of the localization, as well as how Google is wanting you to pay for your ads. And so I think it’s really part of an overall strategy online. So I think there. Yeah. There’s businesses like yours, where I think it has to be part of that strategy. And certainly if you can marry it up with those other pieces, you know, it’s a really powerful strategy, both on a regional national basis. I think the thing for us is, you know, we started in 2010 is really, uh, a mass tort firm. We decided in 2013 to start the Pittsburgh and West Virginia offices, we first went to the West Virginia. Then we went into Pittsburgh and so 13, it was really West Virginia, 15 more concentrated in Pittsburgh. We started with the Ohio Valley PI lawyers, because that’s really the tri-state area there in the Pittsburgh area. And, uh, you know, we had that. And then we had the Chaffin Luhana site, which is really primarily out in New York. And we made a mistake, frankly, from the beginning because we basically separated our brand. And so it became apparent to us in 15/16 that we really needed to bring our brand back together. And that’s really, really started focusing on what does the brand stand for? You know, how can we use it, not just on a regional basis, but a national basis as well. And, uh, and really bring everything together. It brings our offices together better to be under one umbrella, just everything. And so it’s a combination of, um, of that and an SEO strategy. Um, you know, we’ve really had the consolidated sites now. Um, I guess it’s been about a year and a half, something like that, right. Um, I, I think it’s interesting. I think we rank really well for some of our national mass tort, uh, keywords. Um, we’re, we’re at different places. We’re not where we were with Ohio Valley PI lawyers, for example, in the Pittsburgh office. And, uh, I have some understanding of why that is and strategies we’re gonna employ to, to fix that, but not something I’ll talk about public, frankly.

Chris Dreyer

I don’t blame you. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so just for me, I, I’m a big advocate of one site. It’s, you know, one brand you’re essentially, when you have multiple sites, multiple brands, you’ve got to build up all that equity. So I think definitely the right decision, but I get it back in, you know, several years ago around that 2008 period, having the keyword in the domain would help you. So I understand that strategy and how the domain really helped you dominate. Sure. Let’s, let’s talk about. Let’s talk about you being the firm’s managing partner. You have limited time and you really need to focus these activities on the high value activities that bring the most value to the firm. What are your HVAs are your high value activity?

Eric Chaffin

Yeah. You know, it’s interesting. It’s, it’s certainly certainly changed over time. Um, you know, as I mentioned before, when we first started, um, you know. My, I did some SEO work, Im certainly understanding of it, I think it’s important as a managing partner to have an understanding of different parts of the business and even to understand the details of it, I think is really important. Um, you know, with that said, I mean, probably 90% of my time until really the last year and a half to two years. Was really litigating cases. Um, you know, I was trial counsel on cases. I was national litigation counsel on, on big projects. And, uh, you know, we’ve really reached a point where Roopal who’s partner on mass torts is really managing that practice and out on front, for example, on Zantec and then Pat Booth, who’s our partner in the Pittsburgh office is really out in front, a lot of our personal injury cases. And so that’s freed me up to, to work a lot more, um, you know, on the business rather than in the business. And I think that’s a really difficult thing. Uh, to do as a trial lawyer and someone who used to be a federal prosecutor is, you know, I have that hunger to be in there and, and litigate and try cases. And, uh, but I think the, the important thing is you have to step back and say, you know, what is the highest and best use of time, particularly as we’re in a growth strategy in the next three to five years. And I think for us, um, you know, as it can be coming to the realization that my myself accepting that that’s, you know, working on the business is a really important aspect of it has been a mind shift for me. And so I spend more time, uh, on the business itself. The other part of it is, you know, we got involved with, with, uh, with Crisp and Michael Mogill in particular. And, um, I know, you know, those guys and yeah. And, uh, Michael’s a great guy and, you know, I think he’s, he’s got wisdom beyond his years in terms of some of his insights, as well as his business strategies. And so we’ve been really active in, in a mastermind group with them, as well as, uh, you know, just met some really brilliant, uh, you know, owners of law firms across the country and just seeing everyone doing different things, but then also doing some self-assessments and, uh, you know, we did Colby, for example, it was our firm and, you know, there’s different parts of Colby. And the one thing that for myself, that I came to realize is, you know, there’s people that are fact-finders. There are people that are follow through. There are very rule oriented in terms of following rules. And then there are people that are really creative mind, people as well, and many entrepreneurs tend to be creative mindset. And, um, and I tend to be a fact finder, but then also that, that longer green line and more. A little more creative and that’s sort of my, my natural spot. And so, you know, for, for me, that’s where I spent a lot more time in the business, um, to give myself that creative freedom, you know, looking at people like Bill Gates, for example, or others who, you know, have that mindset of stepping away from the business, trying to understand society, what are some of the approaches, right. Yeah, what’s the firm about what are we trying to achieve? You know, our words right now for this year are “positive impact”. And that’s something that across our team that we’re focused on. And, uh, and so just really trying to look at projects and say, how can we have a positive impact? And, you know, 10,000 sandwiches, for example, is something I came up with, you know, sort of, you know, spur of the moment on a, I think it was a Tuesday morning on the 17th and then the literally, but we were executed by the 23rd, right. And, uh, and so just, you know, working on projects like that, not just outwardly on the community, in the community, but then also within the firm, in terms of systems, within platforms with referral sources, um, just that’s, that’s really where I’m spending the time right now. And, uh, and I think as a managing partner, I think that’s really important and it’s something that probably in the first nine years or so of our firm, I wasn’t as focused as much on, uh, but certainly getting to where we want to go in certainly the next, you know, five years, 10 years, I think that’s critically important.

Chris Dreyer

By taking a step back from litigation. Eric is better able to focus on the business of running his firm and look out for potential valuable opportunities. After dropping so many great lessons, I had asked him what other advice he had for lawyers and practice owners out there?

Eric Chaffin

Yeah. You know, I think you have to figure it out. I mean, there’s, there’s, um, you know, we’re seeing the pandemic and I think there’s going to be an awakening I think for everybody. I mean, I think the one thing, and I’ll just say something personal that I think we can, we can just sort of broaden it, but you know, for me, uh, you know, being home as much as I am and be able to work from home, you know, I have a commute that’s 45 minutes to an hour and 15 each day. Uh, each way I should say to New York city, uh, from my home in Westchester, or if I’m traveling to my Pittsburgh office, it’s, it’s obviously longer and I’m spending the night or a couple of nights. And so I think this period is certainly, uh, allowed me to be at home, see some of what I’ve missed, for example. And I think there are other people that see that as well with that said, I have a deep passion for what I do. It’s deeper than who I am. Um, you know, partly because of what I’ve experienced in my life. And so I love what I do truly. I think there are other people that, that maybe aren’t in that position where they’re doing it because they feel like they have to. And I think, you know, if you really want to grow a firm, I think the first thing is, is do you really want that? And frankly, if you do, then I think you you’d have to figure out, you know, how best to do that. And I think that the best strategy is, is to not just do, like what I saw my dad do, which is just work tremendously hard, just keep working, working, working. Um, but instead figure out for yourself not how to soothe issues in your life, but how to really truly recover. And I think that’s something that I didn’t really understand, but I certainly come to understand since like 2015, when I started meditating, but you know, you have to put your own oxygen mask on first. Once you to do that, you can help others put theirs on. And to be a true leader. I think it really starts from within. And so, you know, for me, that’s, you know, non-negotiables, are I meditate daily, usually twice a day, 20 minutes each I physically train, I love training to a, to a goal. So I do Ironman races. I love that. Yeah. Um, that’s something that I do. It’s, non-negotiable, it’s just part of my life. Um, you know, there are other things like journaling and doing gratitude. I think it’s really important. So all of those things helped me state mental clarity and focus and stay present in the moment when I am with my family. So they can disengage from the work itself. And so I, I think that’s really important if you do those things and you’re still in a position of clarity where you’re like, that’s what I want. Then I think, you know, go after it. If it’s in a position where you’re doing it, because you think that you. Need to do it, to keep up with the Joneses, because that’s what you need to do as a firm. I think that’s a mistake and I think that’s a recipe for failure quite frankly, or success with a lot of problems with it.

Chris Dreyer

I think that’s such a great piece of advice because maybe as a lawyer or a law firm owner, you’re not quite where you want to be yet. But finding a way to retreat from that hard work and recharge is so valuable in helping you come back the next day, ready to press on towards your goals. You’ve been listening to The Rankings Podcast. I’m Chris Dreyer. A huge thank you to today’s guest Eric Chaffin for joining us. You can find all of the links from today’s conversation in the show notes. And we want to hear from you. What are some of the ways that you’re promoting your brand? Drop us a review and share your thoughts. Thanks for joining us. We’ll see you next time.