Joe Fier

When it comes to the guests, we see ourselves as the curators of content more than anything- we don’t need to be the experts there. We’re comfortable now, it wasn’t always like this, to almost be like the dumbest guys in the room.

Chris Dreyer

When you’re hosting a podcast, you don’t have to know everything about a topic being discussed. Learning with your audience can be a great way to create a community.

Joe Fier

The transparency thing is actually like probably the best gift you can give yourself is if you’re stumped like that, it’s almost like… ask the dumb questions. But they’re not dumb questions, cause probably 80% of the audience is thinking the same thing.

Chris Dreyer

You’re listening to Personal Injury Mastermind, the show where elite personal injury attorneys and leading edge marketers give you exclusive access to grow strategies for your firm. The Hustle and Flowchart podcast has seen some of the biggest names in online marketing, from Russell Brunson to Neil Patel. Having recorded over 400 episodes since the show’s launch in 2017, hosts Joe Fier and Matt Wolfe have collected a vast amount of knowledge. So much, in fact, that we decided to divide and conquer. We’ll be hearing from Matt next week, but today, Joe will be sharing his knowledge about visual marketing, as well as his take on the whole podcasting process- from how to book the guests you want, all the way through to advertising the end product. I’m your host, Chris dryer, founder and CEO of ranking.io. We help elite personal injury attorneys dominate first page rankings with search engine optimization. Being at the forefront of marketing is all about understanding people, so let’s get to know our guests. Here’s Joe Fier, co-founder of Evergreen profits and co-host of Hustle and Flowchart.

Joe Fier

I knew Matt before I married my wife, so him and I are like brothers from other mothers. And I mean, we’ve always been working together, you know, and entrepreneurship ever since kind of, since we met. We met through mutual friends, we were both doing band stuff, were in rock bands, doing that whole fun stuff here in San Diego and had a mutual friend and we just, I started working for his parents back in the day shutter companies, interior shutters, and they were manufacturing these things. I ran the front of house, and Matt was basically managing the whole factory and a whole bunch of other stuff. We started just tinkering around with blogs and got really interested in how to actually leverage content to gather attention and then monetize, you know, and then give really good value. So that was like the whole spark that like really got us going in this thing,

Chris Dreyer

That’s amazing. And was it just, was he the type of person that you would read a book like Rich Dad Poor Dad, or one of those types of books, and then you guys would go discuss it and talk about it.

Joe Fier

Yeah. That purple book- Rich Dad Poor Dad, it was given to me I think originally, and that I gave it to Matt immediately, by one of the installers at that shutter company. And he was like, you guys seem like this is going to be interesting for you. Like you’re not made for employee work basically. So we read the book, Rich Dad Poor Dad, and Matt quickly did right after that. And you know, he was brought up through entrepreneurship – his parents had that business. I was not. So, you know, right after I read that, I was like, oh, you don’t have to get paid per hour. You could be an investor, you can do all of these different things as a business owner. And that’s where I think everything started ticking in my mind. And then we put it together via con. And that was I would have to give credit to Matt on, in terms of the blogging side of stuff. That’s always been his forte at the tech, you know, I’ve been always the curious one, you know, where I’m gathering information or connecting with people and then content is the thing that it’s always like that ground of where something’s created out of these interactions, you know, and that’s kinda been our duo.

Chris Dreyer

Amazing. Yeah. So you jumped to my next question about how you guys work together. I was reading your bio and you said you’re like the connector. So are you the main person that’s going out and getting these great guests or a lot of them coming to you now that you have a bigger idea?

Joe Fier

Yeah it’s now definitely inbound more than anything, but it wasn’t always that way. Both Matt and I started businesses. It was right around the same time, but we took different paths. Like some of it overlapped by just doing a bunch of events, hustling, meeting people at the bars, you know, like we did so much of that too. That’s like where the momentum started with really – networking. And then from there, that became my passion that still fuels me – connecting with people. I was just having lunch with some friends that were out of town here in San Diego. And I’m like, man, I miss this. You know, it’s obvious COVID put a little damper on that for all of us, unfortunately, but that’s now we’ve created this momentum within our network and that’s how we started our podcast. You just call it up a couple of friends who are interesting. And then that has always generated more referrals for us.

Chris Dreyer

Yeah. And on the visual side, you know, you got a background in animation, video presentation, photography. First, for the personal injury attorneys listening, you know, how should a law firm go about, creating a cohesive visual identity?

Joe Fier

It’s a good question. Yeah. So I started off really where I created a lot of sales videos for information products, online and services. And, you know, these were big product launches doing well. Sometimes they were hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions in a very short period of time. That got me going. I’m like, okay, so if you craft a narrative and have this message that syncs up with your audience’s problems, whatever issue that they might be facing, like let’s address that. And let’s try to keep their attention as much as possible. So I leaned toward video to do that primarily. And you know, some other things would pop into the mix. Like, you know, there were keynote slide decks and things like that. That’s where I specialized in essentially taking someone’s vision, figuring out what problem they’re trying to see. Craft a script or some kind of narrative that can be used for all sorts of things. For a long time, it was sales videos to promote some service – could be long form or short form. And I would say just putting something out there like that most people just didn’t have something to address their audience’s needs. So, you know, an attorney listening right now thinking about the problems that you’re currently solving. That might not be so obvious to the person that’s visiting our website, but you can have some kind of short explainer video. We did a lot of those, you know, two, three minutes or under- something that’s engaging that really talks to the person that might be finding you for the first time. And just start bringing up some of the problems and getting them nodding their heads. Like really, that’s like 80% of it is getting them to trust you and be like, oh, they understand me. That’s really all we were going for there. Yeah.

Chris Dreyer

That’s fantastic. And you guys have over 400 episodes on the hustle and flowchart podcast and you’ve interviewed Jay Abraham, I’ve emailed him and he’s ghosted me. You know, I’ve tried. I remember, it’s funny, I put a pitch deck together for Tony Robinson. I put a hundred thousand dollars ad spin on his episode and they’re like “no, he’s busy”. And I’m like, geez, I really need to level up my game here.

Joe Fier

Well, I have a quick strategy that I guess, you know, and this is really helpful for us. Chet Holmes is someone who, you know, in the sales space – a ton of people know of him. He had the dream 100 strategy and what we have done is applied that thinking or that model to how to, you know, basically get introductions for new podcast guests. So this came up because we were in a mastermind with Roland Frasier, a digital marketer and all that. He’s like. Good buddy of ours now. And that just, again, came through networking, you know, but he asked us “Hey, what are you guys looking for?” And we’re like “well, new connections, you know, we want to level up”. This was a few years ago. So he was like, cool, give us a list of names. So I listed out like 40 people. I was like, well, let’s see who he knew. Well, it turned out to be like the next day I had like 20 introductions. I was like, oh my God. Okay. So that’s a secret. I stumbled into a dream 100 process of my own. It’s essentially – list all the names that the people you’d like to get connected with in a Google sheet, and that’s specific, so a Google sheet, and what you’ll do is take that link, you know, make that a public link and put it in your footer. Or you can just put it in an email. And if you’re using a Gmail service to send emails, it’ll actually attach this attachment, like a little preview on the bottom of the email. It’s not really an attachment, but it’s a link to your sheet. So every first email you ever send, or a reply if someone sends you an email and you reply, that’s going to show up. So it looks like you’re attaching something, but you’re not, it’s just a link in your footer, you know, or the signature of your emails. So every single email that thing’s attached and that’s how we get these referrals is that sheet is, it basically lists all the top 100 people that we want to get connected with. There’s a little description box on top to say what it is and say like, okay, here’s why we want to get connected. And then people just add, out of the blue. It’s literally like multiple times a week. It could be our bookkeeper, someone else random where they’re like, “Hey, I spotted a couple of names on this list that I know I’ll hook you up”. I’m like, cool. Or maybe it’s someone like the people on the list. It could just be someone a little different, but that’s okay.You know, it’s usually a trusted person. And then it’s a yes, pretty much every single time from that person that they connect.

Chris Dreyer

That’s an incredible tactic and one that I’m going to be copying right after this. And I gotta tell you I’ve for that dream 100, I’ve always heard of it applied from like an ‘obtain them as a client’ perspective and not for a referral strategy for a podcast. And it just seems so simple. that’s a great tactic.

Joe Fier

And you can use it for other stuff. It doesn’t have to be for podcasts, getting connected with people that you want to maybe collaborate with or create some content with somehow else, maybe guest on there, their publications, you know, you can guest on their podcast. You can flip the script if you want.

Chris Dreyer

You and Matt have a ton of fun on your show and you know, how has the show changed since you started, for example, when I’m tuning in today, you were saying, you know, ‘This is an intro, This is an intro. This is an intro’. Have you rolled with that from the very beginning, or were you more stuffy at first?

Joe Fier

Definitely more stuffy at first, but you know, we’ve been almost five years in now and you know, like you said, 400 episodes now, or plus. It’s crazy, but yeah, we’ve gotten a lot more comfortable for sure. And we figured out what we enjoy talking about, what lights us up, what makes us curious. And it’s chatting, which is really interesting people, that we find fascinating. It’s not always the tactical marketers like we started with. So I would say that’s a big change is got a little sick of the tactics. I mean, we still talk about them, but you know, we’re thinking a lot deeper now into things like, well, bigger strategy, mindset, you know, different things that help entrepreneurs become better entrepreneurs. That was the big aha moment for us. It’s like, we’re not having fun. It’s not going to sound like fun for the other folks. And you know, that’s not going to light us up. We ain’t going to be keeping the show going if we’re just going to be drudging through and making more business content without a lot of heart.

Chris Dreyer

Right. And I saw a recent one today with Elliot Roe. I mean, just amazing. One of my good friends as well, connected to him and a poker player and just incredible.

Joe Fier

Well, you have a cool story yourself. I heard about poker.

Chris Dreyer

I mean, there’s a lot of luck there. A lot of luck.

Joe Fier

A lot of work too, but I mean, yeah, Elliot’s been great. And so it’s people like him. People that can shift your perspective as an entrepreneur. And we’re still laying a lot of marketing talk in there too. You know, we’re just I think the fun is just coming out. Like we’re getting a whole website redone now where, you know, right now it’s evergreenprofits.com because that’s our company name. It started that way. But now the podcast has completely taken over in terms of the brand itself. So we’re just leaning into that – Hustle and Flowchart – andit’s better because that’s just, it’s our personalities coming out. It’s going to be redesigned. It’s like a beachy vibe. You know, we have this office now that we’re leaning into the visuals.

Chris Dreyer

The Hustle and Flowchart podcast has had some great guests. Perry Marshall, Michael Gerber, Neil Patel, just to name a few. I asked Joe what the pre-interview process looks like, and how he and Matt prepare for their chats with such industry titans.

Joe Fier

So our show, we were doing interviews twice a week, but now we’ve dialed it down to once a week. We’re doing interviews with a guest and then the other episodes, Matt and I kind of riff on a topic or with something that’s going on in our business. We like to just be super transparent. But in terms of preparation for a guest like that, We’re going to use a whole bunch of resources, you know, try to read the books as much as we can, but if not, we’re gonna skim it. You know, we’re gonna use all the different things. Like headway is a good app for summarization for books. That’s a newer one out there. Yeah. listennotes.com has, you know, that’s essentially a Google for podcast episodes. So if you go to listennotes, it’ll essentially index where a guest has already been. And you can do your research and see the different topics they’ve talked about. You know, the show notes usually have the bullet points of what’s been in the episode. There’s all these there’s some really cool apps that are starting to come out with AI now as well where it’ll actually summarize the text of maybe a bunch of blog posts, or maybe there is some long form articles and stuff that some of these folks have written out there. They could start to do a lot quicker if you’re short on time. There’s a lot of ways to shortcut it if you need to. But what we’re doing when we’re going through our research is finding, looking for, the gaps. I personally look for what’s interesting to me. And then I figure out why is that interesting? So it’s like, okay, what’s the layer deeper? And then I try to figure out, okay, how can I can relate a little bit to our audience, what hasn’t been discussed on previous episodes that I can bring up. And how can we just make this a really fun conversation because. That’s been in the DNA of everything we do. In that Elliot Roe conversation that came out, you know, cause we didn’t have a previous conversation with him specifically, and most people we don’t, we just kinda hop on and then just have a cool time. And that’s the goal is like, if at the end, the person’s like I had a great time, I had a fun time, this is a blast, I’m like we did our job. We’re good here. And it’s just a simple, you know, in terms of us during the podcasts, we just have a little prep doc, you know, a Google doc in front of us printed out or on a screen and simple bullet points, a couple of questions, but most of it’s on the fly.

Chris Dreyer

That’s exactly what I was going to say. So I’ve got my research doc I showed you. My team’s probably like Chris, you’re not asking 90% of the questions on there. What are you doing? But I’m the same as with you. I feel like when individuals get in that loop where they’re repeating the same thing, you’ve heard 99 times, it’s like, oh, I need to try to move that individual away from that conversation.

Joe Fier

And that’s a tricky one, man. Yeah, we’ve had a couple of folks, I would say like, you know, that would bring a script or an outline and say like, okay, here’s my outline. I’m like, Ooh, okay. Well, our job is to break you from that outline. We’ll definitely cover, you know, the key points- we’re not going to ignore that, of course. But yeah, we want to make it unique. And I think everyone has the ability to do that. If you’re looking for the curiosity elements and then just figure out what really lights you up and also what lights your audience up. Cause you should have an idea of what’s interesting to them. You know, we do surveys all the time. We’re always asking questions in our emails. So we’re constantly getting feedback. So we know the vein that we should keep that conversation.

Chris Dreyer

Yeah, that’s fantastic. And then you can actually produce the content that your audience wants. And let’s talk about, you know, you do this great interview, right? You have an amazing guest on. You make some amazing social media collateral. Like what, what goes into promoting the show after? Are you doing ads? Are you, is it mostly organic work? I mean, I know you mentioned email, like, you know, what are you doing to try to get it to the get the most impressions.

Joe Fier

I think you’ll like this answer. Our number one new source of traffic is SEO and it’s completely SEO traffic. It was actually buddy of mine, Rich Schefren, I’m sure you’re familiar and know him. And I was telling him, cause he asked the same question or something similar and I was like, oh, it’s SEO. And it’s usually for the names of the guests that we’ve had on. And we’ve had a lot of big name guests where we pop on the front page and we’re outranking their own website and, you know, even social media accounts of theirs. And we’re just like I guess it’s working. So, like Rich Schefren he Googled it and he was like “Dang it, you guys are above my, like you’re literally right below all the social media websites”. I’m like, well, it’s the power of consistent content and doing it for a long time, you know? So SEO is a huge one. Optimizing show notes, pages or blog pages, you know, blog posts, pages. That’s what we’re doing. We do a lot of paid stuff as well.We’re always experimenting with ways to advertize in podcast apps. So places like overcast FM, you know, that’s just one of the podcast apps, but you can sponsor, or you can run ads inside of there, you know? So they, every single platform. Sometimes has an ad you know, opportunity, but also they have opportunities. If you just reach out to them and you want to get featured, you know, maybe they’re running a category feature spot or something like that. We do a lot of outreach to these places to try to get featured, you know, because not most people are doing that. And there’s usually a location to get a little preferential placement if you sometimes pay for it or at least ask. So we’re doing all sorts of things like that, and constantly throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what I see.

Chris Dreyer

A lot of those top 10 podcasts in X category and I’m like, you know, that’d be a great tactic just to do some, you know, digital outreach to those individuals to try to get on those lists.

Joe Fier

And we’ve done that. Oh, we actually, here’s a little tip, and you might appreciate this too. We actually run Google ads to specific keywords that are like top you know, business podcasts, top marketing podcasts, and we’ll actually show up in Google and it links to one of our posts that ironically we’re number one, but we list like, you know, 5 to 10 other podcasts on there, and that’s an opportunity to get traffic and awareness, but also you know, we have lead capture options. So we are doing that, but we’re actually running paid ads on Google for that as well.

Chris Dreyer

So that’s smart. And I’d imagine those other shows there too, you could reach out to him and be like, Hey, we’re spending X amount and you know, why don’t you let’s do a little collaboration here.

Joe Fier

I like that. And showing some proof I’ve been doing it for years.

Chris Dreyer

Right. You know, one of the things that’s popped up recently, more so now than practically ever, are these podcasts networks, have you considered. Any of that. I mean, I see, you know, in our course as tons of shows and then you’ll see the HubSpot podcast network and where EO fire just joined them.

Joe Fier

Oh really? I didn’t know that.

Chris Dreyer

Yeah. Yeah. So what’s your thoughts in general on these podcast networks?

Joe Fier

I think that is what is going to happen. I mean, it’s consolidation. We see it in every other industry and now the podcast industry is, I mean, there’s so much money getting pumped in on advertising. You see what Spotify is doing, where they’re just, you know, you got Joe Rogan, you have Call Her Daddy, I think that’s the name of the show, Yeah. What… 60 million? You know, they’re all, yeah. Amazon’s investing in stuff. They’re buying, you know, agencies. So networks are just right there. I think those are just the Barstool Sports is a good example of one that’s been around. They actually started as a publication, like a newspaper. And like we’ve been studying these guys cause we are super curious about the networks and building more of a media platform because that’s how we see ourselves. And we are actively actually chatting with partners right now to create something that, and we went on a lot of details yet. It’s still super fresh, but yeah, we’ve been, yeah, we’ve been thinking about that for a while because it’s very, you know, it’s obviously very sellable thing because it’s scalable, you know, and once you have systems and processes dialed, which we do have, and you know, right now it’s sold as a product and information product. That’s more like a business in a box type thing for podcasts. But we want to take that, prove it out as a course. And you know, that’s obviously generating revenue for us. It’s getting a ton of results for people. And we do want to translate that. Almost use that as a beginning and ground, you know, a way to maybe optimize podcasts, launch new ones, but then we could start to cherry pick and also outreach to relevant shows. But the idea. Yeah, you can integrate content together when you do that. There’s higher sponsorship opportunities. If you join a network, typically they’ll, there’s an opportunity to make more money. Cause if you’re doing it alone, you know, the rates to get paid on. Sponsorships are very low. That’s something like $25 per thousand downloads. And it’s like, you’d have to be cranking downloads to make any substantial cash. So you’re always, you’re usually better off just doing an affiliate type promotion. So promoting someone else for a percentage or selling your own services or products, but these networks, man, that’s where it’s going I think.

Chris Dreyer

So often in business and in SEO, we’re told that the best results come from finding a niche and sticking to it. But is this always the case? I asked Joe how he feels about niching and what the approach is for the Hustle and Flowchart podcast.

Joe Fier

This is a super important question that most people aren’t really. Yeah. Maybe they haven’t thought about it, or they’re just stuck on it. And I think a lot of folks are probably better off going for the niche to show something that’s super tied in with your current offers, your current audience, you know, you’re not going to, you’re not just doing this to totally distract from the business that is working right now, you know, because a podcast, if you just bolt that on to what you already have. It’s going to bring in more leads, you know, more people are going to know, like, and trust you just through the osmosis of listening to, you know, a single person. With podcasts, it’s not like a group thing that we’re sitting around listening to a podcast together. You know, it’s a very intimate kind of medium. And, you know, through that, you’re going to get more leads. If you have a nice call to action, that takes to like something I would say for this type of podcast. Have one consistent call to action at the beginning of the show, maybe mentioned throughout and at the end, that will lead to a page where they can either get a free report or some kind of free thing from you. That’s a valuable checklist. And then also on the same page, have an opportunity for someone to book a call or start that process. If they’re just right now ready to take an action with you, join your services. They have a clear problem they want to solve, and you’re the person. Given the opportunity to go do something about that.There’s a lot of small podcasts. I know a couple of them, or one stands out where this guy fills a 200 person event, when they’re doing events in person, all the time. Like he was doing that consistently multiple times a year. Think he had like 500, 600 downloads per month. That’s not that many for podcasts.If you have a tight audience, you know, that’s really hanging on your every word. You can do a lot. So I would recommend that it is probably like 90, maybe not 90%, but most people are doing that route. We took the route of more broad, just because we want to do more of that media play and build the platform. We monetize primarily through promoting other people’s stuff. So, you know, as affiliates primarily are partnering, having a wider net allows us to hit on a lot of different interests. And then what we do is segment down into what are those interests. And then we can pair that up in our email followups and other content, and really sync up the right content to the right person, as long as we’re segmenting correct, fancy email tactics with logic and things like that.

Chris Dreyer

Exactly. Again, most podcasters aren’t thinking that way, but if you think the podcast is that like the top of the funnel what’s happening next on the journey because that’s really all you’re doing is you’re creating a journey for these folks. And I feel like the podcast is almost like this, the most intimate way to do that. And if you have a clear path for the next step, then you’re going to get pretty successful. If you’re consistent with it. I had another question in regards to, and you mentioned this briefly earlier, you said you, you changed up your cadence or distribution. You went from a couple a week to a weekly show. You know, what was the outcome of that, that you see like a draw obviously, probably adopt and downloads is because you’re not releasing as frequently, but you know, what were some of the effects of changing up your cadence?

Joe Fier

So, what we ended up doing is we shifted our podcast to still being two episodes per week. But now it’s yeah, it’s one guest episode, and then one episode with Matt and I chatting about whatever it is individually or with ourselves, just the two of us. And we, that was actually a demand or a request from our folks is like, Hey, we want to hear more of you. We want to hear your insights, your takeaways from these conversations, then what are you thinking? What are the trends? What should we be thinking about? Because over time I feel like every podcast, and this is what we’ve heard coaching a lot of podcasters, is that it’s common. You know, people want to hear the person behind, that’s directing the thing. And I don’t think most podcasts would really give time for that or think about that. But it’s like, you have a unique perspective as well. You can just give a shorter episode. That’s fine.

Chris Dreyer

Having a podcast myself. I was like, when I look at my social media, I’m like, oh, I don’t have any original thought leadership. It’s all my guests, which is amazing. And it’s high quality content, but it’s like, oh it’s all about them. So that’s interesting. And I was just wondering, you know, how that worked with the shift and how your audience, you know, what kind of feedback you got from it?

Joe Fier

It’s nice. And so the thing that’s helping is that it allows us to prompt folks from more questions. So we’re getting more interactions and people reaching out to our support channels. Cause we’ll prompt in our emails like, “Hey, what’s the one thing you’re getting stuck on now”. You know, when it comes to the guests, we see ourselves as the curators of content, more than anything, we don’t need to be the experts. And I think that’s the biggest takeaway from doing this for almost five years is like being the curator. I think it takes a lot of pressure off you in terms of needing to know everything.

Chris Dreyer

Have there any been any times in the past where you did your research, but you get your guests on and you’re just like, Hey, I’m just not meshing. You know, for example, you mentioned Roland Frasier and I love Roland, but I remember there was a time that he was talking about one of his strategies to buy a business and I was just mentally blocked out. It just went black because I just didn’t comprehend anything that he was talking about. And, you know, have there been situations even with the prep and what do you do with those interviews? Do you say, you know, we lost it. What do you do?

Joe Fier

So we’ve had some folks where I think the bigger thing is like, If someone’s just too scripted. Like our job in that sense is like, let’s break them away from script mode and ask them some stuff that we’re just like super curious about. That’s just not in the script. We haven’t had a lot of issues with like totally getting stumped. And if we do, I think we just, we just roll with it. And then again, we lean into the curator. Like we’re not the experts here. You know, we almost like, okay. So how would you explain this to someone who has never learned this stuff or is completely new? And because I think we’re comfortable now. It wasn’t always like this to almost be like the dumbest guys in the room. It’s like, how do we just be that and be transparent about that as well. I think that’s the key that most people. Don’t think about it as like the transparency thing is actually like probably the best gift you can give yourself is if you’re stumped like that, it’s it’s almost like ask the dumb questions, but they’re not dumb questions cause it’s probably 80% of the audience is thinking the same thing.

Chris Dreyer

That’s where I was going. You’re probably right. That there’s many of them that just missed it and need the summarized version or just where to go next for the detailed conversation. Yeah. So on that dream 100 lists, who’s a couple of guests, you know, you’re still tactically trying to get in? Who’s some of the perfect guests.

Joe Fier

We have a whole list from, you know, Robert Cialdini is one you know, we were actually getting the intro, I think it’s today from a mutual friend. So he happens to be, you know, he’s promoting his new book, so it’s like times like that that people are more, more open to interviews. Like I know Tony Robbins, for instance, you know, when he’s publishing a book, he’s going on those tours. Those are always times to sink in. But I mean, we have people like Elon Musk on there. I mean, we have like the top dogs, but quick story on Elon is like we actually had… I got introduced to an old roommate of Elon’s from a college or something that kind of had a loose connection. Didn’t work out. But like it’s things like that. And that came through our bookkeeper actually. You never know who is connected to who, you know.

Chris Dreyer

What’s the thing like 27 connections of Kevin Bacon or something?

Joe Fier

That’s seven even.Yeah. It’s Kevin Bacon.Yeah. I mean, so it’s like we have some moonshots out there, but you know, we have folks like Richard Koch, we’ve actually been in touch with him, but you know, it’s the 80:20 guy. You know, writing all the books, and he’s extremely difficult to pin down.So we’ve been waiting for that’d be a year and a half because it’s going to be next year now because he’s not doing any more podcasts this year, but that’s, it’s people like that where it’s like, Ooh, you know, like that’s the one where it will probably be in the middle of the night to record that because there’s a specific time you live, say, European time. So it’s things like that. We’ll bend for the name, you know? But yeah, there’s a lot of names that, I mean, there’s a lot of Daymond John, like there’s folks like. Who probably get, because we actually know a few people that work with him, you know? So it’s like, it’s kinda crazy how small the world is after you start thinking about what you said the degrees of separation of Kevin Bacon, even Facebook had that ability, like where you can see how connected you were for a while. And it was pretty impressive how tight we’re all really webbed together.

Chris Dreyer

Amazing. Yeah. And I was thinking with your chill, Donnie, you know, that book as an influence. Yeah. I was thinking, you know, I wonder if it would be weird to mail him a Christmas candy cane, you know, you read his book who knows.Hey Joe, you know, one final question here, you know, what’s next on the, on for your podcasts. Like what’s next?

Joe Fier

Well, first it’s YouTube. I would say more video focused. Overall, that’s why we got this studio. It’s only a few months old. It’s still getting put together, but it’s it’s opening the doors. I would say, you know, really leveraging YouTube in that algorithm and getting established enough there to really grow our brand, you know, and we’re getting a lot of help. We’re doing some paid stuff organic stuff. Get to the point where we’re starting to get that organic growth, because there’s a tipping point and we’re studying a lot of the creators. There’s some interesting ways to get engagement on YouTube that a lot of marketers or direct response type folks aren’t really leveraging. So our thing now is blending both those worlds together as like, what are these really, you know, the younger creators and the people on YouTube doing and what can we do with direct response type market? Internet marketing, you know, take principles and mash them together. And I think that’s where the media or the podcast network idea is going to play in as well, because that’s going to be a growth lever for that whole thing, I would say. Yeah, creating that media. Site or platform of our own, I think is that’s the biggest direction that we’re headed now, but that’s probably going to be, you know, years in the making iterations as we get there.

Chris Dreyer

Fantastic. And Joe, where can people go to learn more about you and maybe what’s a podcast that they should jump into and listen to.

Joe Fier

Well, yeah, hustleandflowchart.com will get you to our podcast. You can find it on all the platforms as well. Oh man. So we mentioned Roland Frasier. He has been on a couple of times. If you’re talking about like mind expansion in terms of how to look at businesses, I would check out his episodes. Jay Abraham has been on there a couple of times. I believe. Those guys are great. Rich Schefren is an interesting mind. Those three people. Those guys have really expanded our minds in many ways. And that’s how I think a lot of our businesses influence through that strategic thinking. And then we just apply all these different tactics from everyone else and ourselves. So, yeah, check those out.

Chris Dreyer

It was such a pleasure to be able to pick Joe’s brain about all the tips and tricks he’s learned along the way, and I look forward to hearing even more about the hustle and flowchart podcast journey next week, when we’ll be sitting down with Joe’s co-host and business partner, Matt Wolfe. I’d like to thank Joe, from Hustle and Flowchart for sharing his story with us. And I hope you gained some valuable insights from the conversation you’ve been listening to personal injury mastermind. I’m Chris dryer. If you liked this episode, leave us a review.We love to hear from our listeners. I’ll catch you on next. Week’s PIM with another incredible guest and all the strategies you need to master personal injury marketing.