Darl Champion:

If you are a small law firm, that is your equalizer when competing with your Morgan & Morgans and your big advertisers.

Chris Dreyer:

The road to firm growth isn’t always smooth, but with the right perspective and positioning, any firm can expand their reach.

Darl Champion:

Even if you’re a very, very good attorney, you’ve got to be investing in marketing. I think of it as the difference between farming and hunting. I’d much rather farm than have to go out and hunt every single time I need to eat.

Chris Dreyer:

Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind. I’m your host Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Ranking.io, the legal marketing company the best firms hire when they want the rankings, trafficking cases, other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver. Each week you get insights and wisdom from some of the best in the industry. Hit that follow button so that you never miss an episode. All right, let’s dive in. When first starting out, secure those cases by any means necessary. For many, this means relying on referrals. I get it. It makes a lot of sense. Splitting fees can be a great way to bring in predictable revenue while you get to focus on building your business. However, heavy reliance on one or two referral sources places limitations on growth. If you want to succeed, you must do one thing, diversify your case sources. How do you make the shift from a referral-based firm to one that originates its own cases?

On the show today, we have someone who understands these trade-offs. He started his firm from the ground up and just a single referral partner. He knew a change had to be made when it was time to grow and time to take ownership of his case sources. His decision to go all in paid off. He runs a team of seven plus attorneys and over 20 staff members. The Champion Firm has recovered over a hundred million dollars and averages over $20 million in revenue annually. Incredible. A trial attorney and firm owner Darl Champion is on the show today to explain how he got there. Learn how he diversified lead sources, got selective with case criteria and enhanced client experience at every touch point. While the short-term risk gave him pause initially, Darl hasn’t looked back since deciding to take the reins of his own marketing machine. Whether looking to move beyond reliance on case referrals or struggling to grow incrementally, this episode maps a blueprint for getting to the next level. Here’s Darl Champion founding partner at The Champion Firm.

Darl Champion:

I thought that I wanted to be a lawyer when I went to college. I really wasn’t sure. I majored in political science and I think as with most political science majors, you either go to law school or go to graduate school and law school seemed like a more attractive option and I’m certainly glad that I did because I love being a lawyer.

Chris Dreyer:

Over the past decade, your firm’s changed a lot and starting in that second year where you decided to take on referral cases from this larger advertising firm, how did that relationship start? What tactics did you utilize to get involved and how has your relationship and view on referrals changed over the past few years?

Darl Champion:

When I started my firm, I was in survival mode. I didn’t have a lot of referral sources, so about a year into starting my firm, a firm that had referred cases to my prior firm reached out to me and they’re one of the larger advertisers here in the Atlanta area and have a really good reputation. I know sometimes billboard or TV lawyers have a bad rap, but I think they do a really good job for their clients. It seemed like a good fit for me, so I started taking referrals from them. Did that two or three years. I think I had at one point 60 or 70 litigation cases from them out of about 200 cases as a whole, and it wasn’t just me at the firm. We had other attorneys and staff and ultimately I decided to stop taking those cases and go an entirely different direction, a variety of reasons for that.

I made the decision when my son, my five-year-old son was about to be born. He is our second child and I think anybody who goes through a big life change, you’re having this existential crisis. Like who am I? What am I? What’s my purpose in life? And I think the one thing that I recognized was when you’re getting a lot of cases from one referral source, you tend to become over-reliant on them. You tend to feel obligated to take cases you may not otherwise take. I didn’t want to be in that situation. I really wanted to diversify my case sources, so really I looked at diversifying my attorney referral sources, but also diversifying my direct hire marketing, both from client referrals and looking at doing more in the internet marketing side of things.

Chris Dreyer:

So much to unpack here. I’d imagine though turning off the faucet so to speak. That was a huge decision and what was your thought process on like, Hey, I’m going to shift and go to this direction to originate my own cases through digital marketing?

Darl Champion:

I think the one thing that I realized was when I looked around at who were the top lawyers in Georgia that I really admired and respected and they rely on attorney referrals a lot, but they weren’t doing the setup I had, they weren’t relying on one source. I think the other thing that I looked at was not only do you have a fee split when you’re getting referrals, which typically when it’s from an attorney sending it to you for litigation, it’s typically higher than it is. It’s normally 50/50, whereas at a lot of other times if it’s, hey, they’re calling you right when they get the case, it may be a two third, one third split. Two third in your favor when you’re getting the case early on, whereas you’re getting it for litigation, it’s 50/50. And the problem with that model I realized was not only are you having the fee split as opposed to, hey, if I pay the marketing cost myself, I’m getting a direct hire, I don’t have the fee split. But the other benefit you’re getting with a direct hire is you’re not getting a case for litigation.

There is a chance it could settle with not as much work. Not only is the overall fee potentially higher, but your average hourly rate could be a lot higher as well, so that when you’re getting a case for litigation, there’s a reason it didn’t settle. It might be a liability dispute, causation dispute, damages, and you had to put a lot of time and effort into it. When I looked around at, okay, what do I want to be in three years, five years, 10 years, I realized I didn’t want to be doing that. I didn’t want to be overly reliant on one source and I thought the best way to just move forward is to burn all the ships, as they say. I didn’t burn any bridges.

I still have a good relationship with them, but I just had to turn it off and just say, “Look, I just need to become more self-reliant.” I think the other thing too is when you have one referral source, you do tend to neglect a lot of your marketing efforts, whether it is SEO, whether it’s diversifying your attorney referral pool. It’s like anything, even on the defense side, if you have one insurance company or one corporate client sending you all your business, you can get fat and happy and just rely on them. That was really the goal was I want to cut the cord. I want to just start essentially fresh with my marketing strategy and really try to diversify it. I’ve had my best year since, so it worked out well.

Chris Dreyer:

Amazing. Amazing. And I see the website, the website’s doing awards, it looks fantastic. I think Postaly designed that for you. They did a phenomenal job. There’s all different types of professional service like structures for law firms. You got the quote unquote, “settlement law firm” that’s super high volume, got the referral firm where they don’t have a delivery arm, they’re just originating cases and passing to litigators for that 50%. And then you’ve got the litigating that just only relies on peer referrals and the referral type scenario and their expertise. That’s where you see the niching and individuals really focusing to get maximum value. When you think about those different models, the referral model, it seems like they can spend such a disproportionate amount to originate a case. They might be able to invest 60 to 70% of their top line because they only have marketing and sales. How do you think about these different structures and ultimately what made you decide to do the advertising, originate your own cases and do the litigation?

Darl Champion:

That’s a great question because when I talk to people about the business models, that’s what I tell them. I say there’s typically two business models in the plaintiff world. One is they’re doing high volume, low value cases, the other ones doing low volume, high value cases, and we’ve tried to blend the two. I would be lying if I said there weren’t stressors and problems with that. I think every business model, it doesn’t matter what it is, is going to have its own unique challenges and problems. I think for me, what I like about it is it tends to level out the rollercoaster of income that a lot of firms have. If they’re on the litigation side, they’re just depending on bigger cases that are referred to them. I think the one thing that I’ve seen too is a shift in the industry, and I don’t know if this is specific to Atlanta or Georgia or if this is happening across the country.

I think more firms are keeping more of their cases, at least on the bigger advertiser side. I know Morgan & Morgans, they have some really phenomenal lawyers there and they try cases and have gotten some really good results and I think a lot of firms are trying to copy that and trying to be that. I don’t know that you can really rely exclusively on that if you’re in a niche practice. I think you can still be that person and get referrals from those firms because they’re going to look to you for that expertise. But I’ve always wanted to blend both of those business models and that’s what we’ve tried to do here.

Chris Dreyer:

This is something we normally don’t talk about enough. Every interaction with a potential client is a marketing opportunity. Marketing isn’t just about social posts and billboards. Every step of the process from intake to settlement check is a chance to make an impression that could lead to a new client referral.

Darl Champion:

Client referrals obviously, they’re your best evangelists and if you are a small law firm that is your equalizer when competing with your Morgan & Morgans and your big advertisers. If you can take a client… And I’ll give you a great example. We got a client through SEO. It wasn’t a huge case, like a $30,000 car wreck case did a good job. She referred her brother to us. That was a $100,000 case. It creates this snowball effect, but it all starts with the client experience that starts at intake, then making sure they feel heard, showing empathy, making sure that they feel confident in your abilities as a lawyer, the team being on the same page, moving the case along, keeping them updated and informing them.

And ultimately at the end of the case, you want to have wowed them. Now, there are certain people that are never going to feel that way. That’s just dealing with the public. There’s a lot of people where you can make a huge impact on their impression of your firm by giving them that great client experience, which again, it maximizes whatever source you got them from. Like SEO or PPC or whatever, it’s making even more money and adding more value from that original source.

Chris Dreyer:

You could be the best attorney in the world, but if you don’t get the cases, you don’t have the opportunity to do it. From a marketing perspective, how do you think about say, brand versus direct response? And then the second question on that is, is digital versus traditional?

Darl Champion:

This is a constant ongoing debate that we have. If you asked me in six months, my answer may be very, very different. And if you asked me six months before, now my answer is probably going to be very, very different. What I’ve seen with organic SEO over the last couple of years is it seems to be very volatile in terms of you’re either appearing that month. When I say month, it’s not like a 30 day they just turn a switch, but for purposes of our tracking it’s like, wow, we got a bunch of online leads this month and then the next month it may not be as many. I think unless you’re going all in and just investing a boatload of money and you’ve got that huge overall presence in the community, it can be very hard to compete in the SEO space.

I think it is a good piece of the puzzle though, if you’re the right firm. I think for us, given that we take such a wide variety of cases, it increases the chance that we’re going to take a case that we bring in within that net. We’ve had medical malpractice cases that we’ve gotten online that have been great cases. We’ve gotten premises cases, car wreck cases. If you’re just trying to get straightforward car wreck lead gen from your organic SEO efforts, you can do it. I just think it’s going to be very expensive in a major metro and you got to be patient, that’s the other thing. I think for lawyers, I know some people talk about 12 months, you need to wait. I think it’s more like 24 months personally.

Chris Dreyer:

In your market for sure.

Darl Champion:

And so I think that what I like a lot is I like branding. I know I listen to some other podcasts and there’s one that refers to it as brand affinity, and I think getting people not just to know you but to like you is really important. A lot of what we do with even my own personal social media pages and then the firm pages are showcasing, okay, what are we doing in the community? What are the community events we’re doing, the things that we’re sponsoring? What are the things that we’re doing case wise? What are the types of cases we’re working on in advertising or putting out there some of the higher value ones we’ve gotten so that people see us as that trusted authority and may choose to hire us? But again, you’re right. You could be the best attorney in the world, if people don’t know about you, they may not hire you.

Now, I will say if I had to choose between being the best attorney in the world and the worst marketer or the worst attorney in the world and the best marketer I’d take being the best attorney in the world any day of the week, because sooner or later people are going to hear about you. It may just take a really long time, but it’s really not that black and white. It really, even if you’re a very, very good attorney, you’ve got to be investing in marketing. But I really like to put my dollars into organic SEO because I think of it as the difference between farming and hunting. I’d much rather farm than have to go out and hunt every single time I need to eat. And I think building up an asset that you have as a website and having it have long-term value and growth is important.

But the other part of this too is even if you have a client referral, you’re relying on client referrals or attorney referrals, having a stellar website is incredibly important because even when they get that referral, they’re going to go check you out. They’re going to go and read your reviews. They want to see your client testimonials, they want to see the videos, they want to read about your case result. And so I don’t really think of marketing as separate buckets. I think of it as one big ecosystem and then everything works together. And I’ll give you a great example. I’ve been very active on LinkedIn and I didn’t do that as a lead gen. I did it as, hey… We will post something on LinkedIn and people will tell me, “Hey, I really identified with that.” And then I’ll invite them to lunch and then we’ll go to lunch and then maybe I build a relationship with them, invite them to a Braves game or Falcons game, and then they start referring me business.

I had one article I posted where a legal publication reached out to me to be the person to speak on a particular issue because of it. I had one where the local NPR station reached out to me, so I not only got to be on the NPR radio station, but I got them to put a back link on their website. That’s a very organic back link. I would encourage anybody who looks at their marketing strategy to not think of it as, hey, I’m paying X amount for SEO, I need to be getting this from this or I’m spending this on this. Think of it as a whole and how is each component part integrating with the other and working together.

Chris Dreyer:

Such a thorough answer. I agree 100% with all of that. One of the things you mentioned… And look, I’m an SEO guy. You know I’m an SEO guy, and we know the different value of being in the mat pack and organic and all of that. We’ve managed millions upon millions of ad spend. Sometimes the case selection criteria, the thresholds is so high, it’s really difficult to get those under $2,000 CPAs. But a firm like yours that has a wider skillset that could do the premises or the med mal, it just seems like, that’s where it could be a lucrative option because you’re bidding, they have intent, they’re coming to you, but of course you will have to go through the mess of junk to find those cases.

Darl Champion:

Here’s the way I think of it, and this may not be unique to me, but this is the way I think of it. I try to look at what am I spending on PPC and SEO each month and then I try and average that out on the cases we signed from those sources. For example, let’s say we spend 15,000 one month on organic SEO, and we’ve been doing it for a year and each month we’re averaging five signed cases a month. I think of it as $3,000 for that case. I don’t think you can look at it in a vacuum and say, is that a good metric? Because that may be a phenomenal metric. If each case is a six figure case or seven figure case. It may be a terrible metric if they’re all $7,000 soft tissue car wreck cases, and it’s the same thing with PPC.

If you’re going to run a PPC campaign, you have to know and identify what your intent is. If you’re looking for that whale and you’re going whale hunting, it may cost you 50 grand or 100 grand to get that case, but let’s say it’s a $5 million medical malpractice case. Are you going to be better off spending 50 grand on a PPC budget to get that $5 million med mal case that you now have as a direct hire and don’t have a fee share? Or would you be better off saying, I’m not going to do that. I’m going to do the referral fee split. In which event you get a 40% fee, $2 million, you pay them two thirds. You spent 600 grand to get that case essentially. Again, if you have the… Part of this too is you have to have the infrastructure to accommodate the influx of the call volume and process the leads and close them.

But I think what I see a lot of in the personal injury world, and I’ve talked about this some on LinkedIn and in my podcast is the copycat model is, well, if so-and-so is doing this, I need to go do it. They’re spending this on SEO, I need to do it. They’re spending this on PPC, they’re getting this per case. They need to customize it to their situation. Okay, do I want to get cases that way? Do I have the bandwidth to process them from an intake side? Do I have the bandwidth to screen them and then when I take them, do I have the bandwidth to work them?

I’m 100% with you on the PPC. I think it depends on… I wouldn’t even be super critical of PPC if you are running a campaign that has a super high cost per acquisition, but it’s a really good case and you’re getting them on a regular basis. As long as you have the money to do that, there’s no harm in doing. Where it becomes problematic is when you’re putting all your eggs in that basket and you don’t have a safety net, you’re up against your credit line and you got no money in the bank, and it’s like your Hail Mary. Don’t do that. That’s not a very smart move. But if you’re rocking along and you’ve got cases coming in and you know hey, I may have to spend $100,000 to get that random $5 million whale of a case or $10 million case, is that a problem? I don’t know.

Chris Dreyer:

When Darl moved away from a peer-based referral firm, he needed to invest in marketing. Eventually, he created an in-house marketing team. They don’t tackle every branch of the marketing flywheel in-house. He explains when it’s a good idea to outsource.

Darl Champion:

If you’re trying to have a diversified marketing strategy, you have to have a marketing director, period. And that could be just one person who is your marketing director. But what we wanted to do was we wanted to build out a team of people, and it’s a small team. It’s three people. We’ve got a marketing director who is also our intake director. We have a person I refer to as our digital marketing manager. She runs the podcast, oversees a lot of the written content that we create internally that’s focused towards attorneys. Because we do have some attorney focused content like case updates and things like that. Email blast also works with our SEO company and the company doing the PPC. Then we have a full-time videographer because I think video is so important now, whether you’re putting it out on social media or your website. We looked at what we were spending outside for what we were getting for it.

I’m like, we can spend a little bit more than that and get a hundred times more video. Why would we not do that? We decided to go that route with video. I think it’s great. I think you’re really maximizing the value of your external partner. I don’t think it’s a good idea for law firms unless you’re, again, the Morgan & Morgan exception. I imagine they probably have their own in-house team of SEO people because what they do. Anybody else, you got to have an outside partner because there’s so many changes in SEO and it’s so specific with how much it changes and everything. There’s a real risk that if you pull that all in-house, you could easily make some mistake or do something that isn’t going to get caught or isn’t going to be corrected. I think the in-house team with the outside marketing partner is the best way to go without a doubt.

Chris Dreyer:

One of the things that isn’t talked about enough is the fractional component of especially search because you need some content, you need links, you need a local strategy. There’s different things, and if you had to bring that in-house, you’d have to probably hire multiple individuals and then you’d probably wouldn’t need them entirely to just do onsite SEO and things like that. I agree. You being a phenomenal trial attorney, talk to me about just caseload and how you think about selecting your cases and just some of your tips to be most effective from the trial and litigating perspective.

Darl Champion:

I started my firm coming up on 10 years ago, and the firm that I came from was very selective with their case criteria. And I am a lot looser with my case criteria because there’s some cases you just don’t know until you get in there and you could really miss out on a high value case. Some of my most valuable cases have been cases that other attorneys have rejected. Not all of them, but some of them. All of this, this all fits with marketing too, is what’s your identity? What do you want to be known for? How are you going to staff these cases and work them up if you as the business owner just want to be a business owner? Well, that’s one business model. If you want to be the trial lawyer, then you need to have the team of people around you to facilitate that because you can’t devote the time that you need to work a case up for trial if you’re having to intercede in the $10,000 car wreck case with the client who’s being difficult.

If you can build that business model to where you have a team of people, like a department of, hey, y’all are going to handle these pre-suit car wreck cases. And they can get handled well and efficiently and properly and build client satisfaction without you getting involved, then great take those cases. If you can’t do it, you don’t need to take those cases because they’re going to ultimately interfere with your ability to be a trial lawyer. And that’s what I’ve found is to be the biggest indicator of whether to take a case for me is the likability of the client. Again, there’s some exceptions to this. If somebody gets ran over by a tractor trailer and killed, that’s a different case than somebody who’s like a soft tissue car wreck case. But on the whole, I’ll tell you this, if I have a case where I’m on the fence about it, like a slip and fall, and I really don’t know if we’re going to be able to prove liability, maybe the statute of limitations is coming up.

If I know the client is likable and I like them and they’re not going to be a pain in the butt, and if it turns out it’s not a case, they’re going to understand when I tell them, hey, we looked into it’s not a case, I’ll take that case all day long. I will not take the close call if the client is difficult. That is essentially my best advice on case criteria. We don’t have… I know some firms have data points like assign this number of points for this client or this number of points for this category. Mine is the Supreme Court definition of obscenity. I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it. That’s the same thing. I know it when I see it and I know a case when, hey, there may be some issues on this one, but I can spot these things and this could potentially be a high value case, let’s take it.

And I think the reason that’s worked out for us is because I do have the team of people to do it. If I was a solo practitioner or whatever, I’d have to be super selective on the cases that we take because there’s only so many hours in a day. And then as you start working on higher value cases over time, those take more time and so your caseload needs to drop. But again, it’s a constant back and forth between cases going in, cases coming in. What do you have coming up on the trial calendar? I will say this though, about being a trial lawyer is I’ve never liked to refer to myself necessarily as a trial lawyer. I refer to myself as a personal injury lawyer for branding because people don’t know what a trial lawyer is.

They’re like, you go to trial, “Can you help me with my criminal case?” They don’t know, but clients don’t want to go to trial, but clients coming to us with a problem it’s not, I want to feed your ego so you can go get this great result and advertise it to your friends. It’s hey, this problem happened. I need a solution. I think of myself as more of a problem solver and the problem solver could be negotiating an early resolution. It could be having to file suit and get it done, or it could be going to trial and getting a great result for the client.

Chris Dreyer:

So much there. Bifurcating like, hey, maybe the soft tissue versus the litigating team and keeping that separate. And then the other thing too, is there a case velocity component? Because I imagine the consumer’s hurt, they get all these expenses, maybe they can’t work, they want their money, they don’t maybe want to wait two years or whatever. And I guess, so that’s where the problem solver comes into play like, hey, what do you really want here?

Darl Champion:

100%. What we’ve tried to do in terms of building our teams is we’ve tried to have… And we don’t call it necessarily a pre-lit department, it has more to do with case size because a med mal case when it comes in pre-lit, but I’m not going to give that to a second year attorney. We’ve got teams of people that focus on certain types of cases within a certain range of value. One of the things that we try to emphasize to our team is, hey, when you’ve got a case, and if it’s a policy limits case, you know that you’re going to get the medical records in and probably send a demand and get it resolved. But when it’s a case where, hey, your client’s going to be treating for a while and probably going to get low balled because you seldom get a great pre-suit offer, in my experience. Go ahead and file suit so that while they’re treating, your case is progressing along the way and it helps get the case done at a quicker pace.

But trials are something that clients don’t want to go through and that is difficult, but sometimes the insurance companies really make it easy on you, and that’s something we see a lot in the automobile context. Any kind of car wreck case, unless it’s a clear policy limits case, they’ll offer you less than your medical bills and you got to file suit, and they may or may not settle it after. But again, if you’ve got the team of people to work on that, it’s great. If not, it can be a total nightmare.

Chris Dreyer:

I love that. I love how you’re segmenting by specialty and by the size of the cases. I think there’s a lot of skill to that. And I like the file to speed up the case velocity no matter what, if it settles or it goes to the trial. What’s next for your firm and where can people go to connect with you?

Darl Champion:

People can check us out on our website, thechampionfirm.com. They can check me out on LinkedIn, would love to connect if anybody’s got any questions or wants to talk about my journey as a firm owner. And I like to talk about all the mistakes that I’ve made because the good thing about me is I’ve made some really stupid mistakes, and so I’ve learned a lot of lessons from them. And I don’t regret any of them because they have taught me a lot. In terms of what is the future of the firm, it’s probably going to be the same thing.

Me making mistakes and learning along the way. I always think it’s funny when people ask me questions like I’m the one who’s got it figured out and they want to ask me for advice. I’m like, I’m still learning. Somebody that started their firm a year ago, I want to learn from them. I want to know what they’re seeing, what they’re doing. I don’t have it all figured out, but I think our business going to continue the way that it is, which is to focus on a variety of cases, focus on maximizing value on each individual case, really trying to focus on branding from a marketing standpoint, marketing is part of everything you do on a daily basis in terms of your client experience. Continuing to just reinforce high level client service so that we can build up those client referrals.

Chris Dreyer:

Thanks so much for Darl for sharing his wisdom today. Let’s hit the takeaways time for the pinpoints. Diversify your revenue streams. When you’re just starting out, referral partnerships can help drive revenue, but if you rely too much on one partner or source, you can expose your firm to more risk. Hedge your bets, draw income from multiple places and look to bring in your own cases.

Darl Champion:

When I looked around at, okay, what do I want to be in three years, five years, 10 years, I realized I didn’t want to be overly reliant on one source, and I thought the best way to just move forward is to burn all the ships, as they say, and I just had to turn it off. And that was really the goal was I want to cut the cord. I want to just start essentially fresh with my marketing strategy and really try to diversify it. I’ve had my best year since.

Chris Dreyer:

Choose your fighter. Most firms fall into two models, high volume, low value or low volume, high value cases. One is not better than the other. What is best for your firm hangs on the goals you set. Whatever you choose, Darl emphasizes you need to invest in an online presence.

Darl Champion:

I really like to put my dollars into organic SEO because I think of it as the difference between farming and hunting. I’d much rather farm than have to go out and hunt every single time I need to eat. I think building up an asset that you have as a website and having it have long-term value and growth is important.

Chris Dreyer:

Build a team. When making a shift to starting or growing your marketing efforts, know that you don’t have to do it alone. Actually, it is way better if you don’t do it all alone. Some aspects of marketing like social media can remain in-house or be outsourced to an agency or freelancer. But for most firms, the more complex and specialized aspects of marketing like PPC and SEO should be delegated to the experts. Capitalizing a consistent marketing strategy can feel like a big investment, but remember, partnering with the right vendors will help fuel growth.

Darl Champion:

If you’re looking for that whale and you’re going whale hunting, it may cost you 50 grand or 100 grand to get that case, but let’s say it’s a $5 million medical malpractice case. Are you going to be better off spending 50 grand on a PPC budget to get that $5 million med mal case that you now have as a direct hire and don’t have a fee share? Or would you be better off saying, I’m not going to do that. I’m going to do the referral fee split. In which event you get a 40% fee, $2 million, you pay them two thirds. You spent 600 grand to get that case essentially.

Chris Dreyer:

For more information about Darl Champion, check out the show notes. While you’re there please hit that follow button so you never miss an episode of Personal Injury Mastermind with me, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io. All right everybody, thanks for hanging out. See you next time. I’m out.