David Goins:

We don’t just sell leads, we help build law firms.

Chris Dreyer:

No firm has 100% market share, not even the big guys. To maximize exposure, choose your partners wisely.

David Goins:

We connect, roughly, 5,000 motor vehicle accidents a month across the country. Long-term, most firms get about a three to one return on their dollar.

Chris Dreyer:

Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind. I’m your host, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io, the elite legal marketing agency. Each week, you get insights and wisdom from some of the best in the legal industry. On special Toolkit Tuesdays, we dive deep into conversations with the leading vendors in this legal sphere, the masterminds behind the technology services and strategies that help your law firm not just survive but thrive in today’s competitive landscape.
Now, this isn’t about selling you the latest software or getting kickbacks from affiliate links. It’s about bringing you the best so that you can be the best for your firm, for your staff, for your clients, and for you. This is Toolkit Tuesday on PIM, your weekly guide to staying sharp in the legal world. Get ready to take notes.
If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, do me a favor. Scroll down to the bottom of the show profile. See the stars at the bottom? Tap those five stars. I’ll be forever grateful. Let’s get started.

David Goins:

In 2010, I started a company called Law Info.

Chris Dreyer:

That’s David Goins, SVP of Sales at Walker Advertising.

David Goins:

Worked there for five years. We were acquired by Thompson Reuters, so then transitioned to FindLaw for a long time. My connection to Walker was my old boss at FindLaw worked at Walker, and that was my bridge over to Walker and couldn’t be happier.

Chris Dreyer:

David’s job is no small task. The agency generates over 38 million impressions per week. Today, we tap into some valuable insights that David has gained over the years. The team works exclusively with plaintiff lawyers and focuses on the vehicle injury space, but the tools David has to share today can be applied to any firm.
We get into adopting the changing media landscape and the value of prioritizing long-term relationships over short-term solutions. Here’s David Goins, Senior Vice President of Sales at Walker Advertising.

David Goins:

We started in 1984 by a court translator who was 19 years old at the time, legal advertising was only around seven years or so at that point, as a joint advertising Southern California thing connecting, primarily, Hispanic injury victims. We saw… Or she saw, at that time, just the gap of access to justice within that audience. So that’s really been the mission of Walker Advertising, is giving a voice to the voiceless and people who may not have access to justice and aren’t even part of the system and connecting them to a local attorney. So, that’s how it started and we’re in all 50 states now.
I work primarily with our firms outside of California. Big picture how we work, we operate… We have our list of clients, we connect injury victims directly to our clients, and that’s primarily unbranded advertising from their end. We have a call center with about a hundred agents. We’re vetting the calls for ten, 15 minutes, they’re meeting the qualifiers that we agree upon while we’re transferring those live transfer phone calls over to firms.
So that’s really the deliverable that we’re offering the firms and we have that… Juggling a consumer-facing brand where we have a responsibility to our consumer and finding them the right attorney to be connected to. So it takes an additional level of vetting of who we’re working with, making sure that the firm’s getting a great ROI. So we’re doing that juggle.

Chris Dreyer:

You guys hit 38 million impressions per week. Per week, guys, across major media channels in 2019. If a firm works with you… And it is lead gen they are getting… But you’re doing the cases, so it’s the qualified leads. You would work through your brand, driving the traffic, and maybe that’s how you get economies to scale, to probably do things that other businesses can’t do, so to speak.

David Goins:

100%. Yeah. And we work with firms of all shapes and sizes. A lot of large TV players. And what we say is, “It’s not necessarily an either or, it’s an and.” The reality is they’re calling us because they don’t know you. So it’s just connecting that dot. And a lot of times our clientele is great future referral sources. Once they’re in your sphere then their cousin has a case, they’re going to call you, they’re not going to call back us.

Chris Dreyer:

Right. Everyone, whether it’s SEO or Google Ads, we all have these tactical approaches. But big picture, what kind of channels are you finding to be most successful for plaintiff attorneys?

David Goins:

Yeah. When the company started, it was 100% TV and then, obviously, people aren’t watching TV how they were before. So we adapt and, big picture, it’s “Where are the eyeballs?” and “Let’s follow the eyeballs.”
We’ve toyed with things like TikTok and stuff like that with varying success, but we’re constantly adapting. I’d say now we’re in a world where we’re probably 60% digital, 40% traditional.

Chris Dreyer:

Wow. And would you include OTT on the digital side? Is that how you would classify it?

David Goins:

Yeah. So I, personally, am a big YouTube TV guy and I’ll see our ads on those commercial breaks and we definitely leverage those in addition to our own branded Facebook advertising and Instagram and stuff like that. A lot of Google-branded PPC as well.

Chris Dreyer:

Google Ads. You said you specialize in motor vehicle accidents and are you finding… Again, I’m not trying to convey your secrets, right? That it’s still a great channel for picking up car accidents and the motor vehicle accidents? Because if you go after those head terms, those big transactional… And in some markets it’s going to be, minimum, $300 per click.

David Goins:

Yeah. I think that we do get a lot through Google PPC and it is expensive. We do have a certain economies of scale because we spend so much and we have such a big machine and we work closely with Google. So we definitely have a big enough engine that the train’s moving and creates an opportunity for firms rather than starting from grounds zero, just because we’ve had so much momentum.
It is cost prohibitive, but we do a lot of national buys and stuff like that too on the TV front. We spend enough with Google that I think we do get… We have smart people, people smarter than me, on the tech end of how they do it. I just know that they’re getting it done on that front.

Chris Dreyer:

I think those economies of scale and the data that you have probably really helps. Because if you’re working out of one campaign manager, you just continue to refine your data and improve your ad sets and your ad groups.

David Goins:

And a lot of it is just having the stomach to withstand a couple bad months, a couple bad quarters, and just having the long-term approach of it not being all chips in “Let’s see what happens next month. If it doesn’t work, I’m never doing it again.” We’re in for the long haul. We know it’s going to level out eventually.

Chris Dreyer:

So, let’s paint the picture. Let’s say St. Louis is the closest city to me. Let’s say I’m a St. Louis PI attorney and we come to you. What’s the process in the early conversation with Walker?

David Goins:

Yeah. By and large, we want to see where there’s a potential gap where we can potentially help see if it makes sense on both sides. We’re big on finding long-term partners, not looking for short-term solutions on either side so we don’t have contracts, which is pretty rare in our space. With that, most of our clients have been with us five plus years, so we’re pretty selective of who we work with.
But what we look for is what does growth look like. If it’s 20 cases a month or if it’s a hundred cases a month and you’re in a small DMA, we may not be the right solution. Or we could be if it’s the right DMAs. So just seeing what their growth projections are and if our solution could potentially satisfy that.
We go in eyes wide open, usually let them know this is going to take three months before you can really assess what this is, and make sure that they have the stomach for that and the vision for that. To give the program a fair shake. Because the reality is we connect, roughly, 5,000 motor vehicle accidents a month across the country. I know what the statistics are, I know how many of those are commercial policies, I know how many of those are serious injuries.
But for those statistics to have any significance, you need to have a good enough sample size and be on the program long enough to see some of that fruit. So make sure that we’re like-minded with a partner. I’d say that is probably mission number one.

Chris Dreyer:

That’s fantastic. So you’ll come in and have the transparent conversation on, “Hey, what’s the investment look like for this market?” and just general… Just because of your data and experience, you at least give some ballpark estimates that you can expect.

David Goins:

Long-term, most firms get about a three to one return on their dollar with us. Results may vary, right? We can’t guarantee. But that’s what we’re seeing across the country. That’s what we think you would be in position to get and, in order to do that, we need to make sure that we have your intake locked in, we have your procedures locked in, give this a fair shake.
We’ll deliver the fastball across the plate, but you got to swing the bat and we got to help you, give you some batting tips occasionally. But we will want to make sure it’s in a position where you succeed. Equally important that our consumers are getting access to a great firm.

Chris Dreyer:

Before you go spending loads of cash on ads, you got to make sure your intake is dialed in. If your intake process is not streamlined, you may struggle to convert them into signed clients, even if your campaigns generate a high volume of leads.
Advertising campaigns require a significant financial investment and you’ll want to make the most out of that investment. A strong intake sets a solid foundation for success, ensuring that your advertising efforts yield the desired results and drive sustainable growth for your law firm.

David Goins:

We don’t just sell leads, we help build law firms. And a big part of that is let’s… We need to practice what we preach. And a big part of that is developing that foundation of the house, and a lot of times that starts with helping with intake.
Once intake’s dialed in, maybe it’ll help with ongoing educational opportunities and support where they can maximize case results. We’re really big in the mild TPI world, making sure that issues are identified. And if we can lend one little nugget that’s going to help turn one case, it’ll pay off.

Chris Dreyer:

You are treated as a partner and extension of the firm. I love that. Let’s circle back around to the Hispanic marketing. Walker, you mentioned that, specializes in Hispanic marketing. How has the market potential changed over the past decade or so?

David Goins:

It’s grown exponentially. I think there’ll be… The projections are it’s going to surpass 50% in the next five years. I would say the user profile is changing a little bit. The first generation, doesn’t speak a lick of English, is a smaller percentage. A lot of it is going to be people who consume media on both sides. They may watch soccer or something on Univision, but they also may be watching OTT English programs as well.
So a lot of the user profile has changed. We’re getting a lot more second, third generation Hispanic callers, I would say, across the board. It used to be if you don’t have a Spanish intake, we may not be the right solution. Now, it’s pretty much if you don’t have Spanish intake, you probably still could be a potential client.

Chris Dreyer:

So, when I think of Spanish markets, I think of Houston and some of these other markets. But what about… Are these markets where your services isn’t as effective because the community, they don’t have a large Hispanic population?

David Goins:

It pretty much follows the population, right? So California, obviously, is our largest market. But after that… I’m in Dallas. Texas and Florida are our next two biggest markets and then the New York, the Illinois. Georgia is a huge market that’s growing a lot within the Hispanic community. But you’re right, if it’s South Dakota or something, we’re not going to get many Hispanic calls, but we’re probably not getting a ton of English calls either just because it’s a much smaller population base.

Chris Dreyer:

So, recently Florida had the big court changes and a lot of their value could be decreased for certain firms. So have you seen… Maybe Walker could be a solution to maybe try out different markets or reach a different audience to hedge against that? Is there anything there? Just since that’s such a top of mind topic.

David Goins:

I think definitely. I see a lot of parallels between what’s going on in Florida and the early days of COVID. You see people’s risk tolerance and some are going to pack up shops, some are going to hit the brakes, others are going to pull the line, others are going to get bullish and see it as a land grab opportunity to gain more market share.
What happened to us in COVID is it was actually a good opportunity for us. We had a decrease of 20% or so volume nationwide for a while. We still had consistent high volume across the country and it gave an opportunity where a lot of firms who were previously “I don’t work with anyone else, I just work off of referrals” a lot of referral relationships dried up a little bit during the pandemic when no one is out and about.
And we were the lifeblood for a lot of firms like that and have maintained those relationships post-COVID. And I see some similarities in what’s going on in Florida. There’s a lot of unknown. Is case value going to go down X percent? A lot of it’s just guesswork at this point, but I know what our volume is. Most of our partners…
We haven’t lost a partner, everyone’s staying the course, everyone has eyes wide open to see what’s going to happen. But regardless of what’s happened, I know the consistency that we offer and how we can be a potential life raft given any environmental situation.

Chris Dreyer:

As a follow-up to that… And I love hearing that. The language you’re using is partner. You have these long-term relationships. And it’s the question that every agency… You’re hit with all the time is the geographic exclusivity.
Do you limit who you work with in a market? If some markets, maybe, you work with multiple because you have enough leads in that market? Or in other markets you’re just “Hey, we can support one individual.” How do you approach that question? Because I know a lot of our audience is thinking that and that will come up.

David Goins:

Sure. Yeah. So, we don’t have exclusivity for the very reason that, with being a consumer-facing brand, we want to make sure that our consumers have multiple options of firms that they can potentially work with. How we do that ethically and make sure everyone has a fair shot is it’s all based on just a round-robin rotation.
It’s going to be influenced by their intake hours, when they’re receiving calls, things of that nature. But everyone… The algorithm points out to the call center, “This firm’s off net. Connect this call to this firm.” We don’t offer exclusivity, but it is a big role of making sure that we don’t oversell a market based upon current volume that we’re getting. So we set that expectation of, “Hey, you know what? You want ten cases, realistically, it’s going to take two weeks or three weeks” or whatever it may be.
So we set that on the front end. We have markets. We’re generating 600 qualified calls a month, other markets are significantly smaller. So it’s really just about where they’re at. We’re a premium solution, we’re not competing on price, we’re competing on quality, and it’s a certain segment of the market that we’re going to work with. But if the results are there, people will benefit from the relationship, we don’t need to lock them into contracts.
And even the Morgan & Morgans, they’re missing cases and no firm has 100% market share. These are cases that they don’t know who to call, they’re calling us, we’re doing that handoff. It’s just another pond to fish from from a firm’s perspective, another channel that they could potentially help people and then also reach and exceed their business goals.

Chris Dreyer:

Thanks so much to David for all the great insights he shared today. If you’d like to get in touch with David…

David Goins:

walkeradvertising.com is a great place to learn more and reach out to us. Additionally, where we’re at most, legal conferences, we’re out and about. We’d love to meet our client base, get to know them in person and how, potentially, we can support.

Chris Dreyer:

As consumption patterns change, you’ve got to shift where and how you invest. David likes to split marketing budget 60/40, 60% goes to digital media and 40% goes to traditional channels. But remember, they can leverage economies of scale to get the best prices nationwide. So spend wisely. Marketing is a long game. You have to be willing to withstand bad months or bad quarters. It’s that consistency that will help you get to the top. And, of course, before you spend big on marketing, make sure your house is in order. Dial in your intake and make sure you’re getting the most value out of the leads you already got.
All right, everybody. Those are the takeaways for today’s toolkit. If you learned something valuable today, leave me a five star review. And for more insights from our amazing guests, check out the show notes. Thanks for listening to Personal Injury Mastermind with me, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io.