Gary Sarner:

Legal is now the number one local advertising category across the nation on television and radio, and these guys are duking it out left and right, break by break, trying to separate themselves.

Chris Dreyer:

If you wanted to get in the ring and earn a share of the market, you need a partner willing to fight.

Gary Sarner:

I don’t care what you do, if it’s SEO, if it’s radio, if it’s TV, but whatever you do, you better own it and you better do it right or it’s not going to work the way you need it to.

Chris Dreyer:

Welcome to Personal Injury Mastermind. I’m your host, Chris Dreyer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io, the preeminent personal injury marketing agency. Before we get started, if you’d like what you hear, head on over to Apple or Spotify and pound that five star review button. And if you don’t like what you hear, tell me about it in a one star review, I got a big hug for all my haters too. Each week we talk to the best in the legal industry ready to dominate your market? Let’s go.
It’s no secret that traditional radio advertising packs a huge punch. Big firms love this marketing channel for a few reasons. One, brand recognition, listeners hear the firm’s name over and over again, and when they turn to Google, they click through the brand that they know that they’ve heard before. Two, a low cost per thousand impressions. A low CPM. That means more attention for less money. And three, these ads travel with your target client in the car the ads are playing where the accident happens. With radio, you’re buying time. You cannot fast-forward. It’s the only instance when an individual can absorb your marketing while doing something else. Individuals don’t have to choose between your ad and what they want to do. Now, some of you might be skeptical. I get it. You might be thinking the radio’s dying, but after hearing today’s conversation, you might change your mind. Hit me up on Instagram and let me know your thoughts.
Gary Sarner, founder at ROI360+ is back. Gary is a force in buying media. His firm has over 55 years of combined experience. They don’t just buy ad space, they create it like an owned asset for law firms and he gets the best for his clients nationwide. He is a fighter on a mission. Here’s Gary Sarner, founder at ROI360+ on why radio is alive and thriving.

Gary Sarner:

I was out with the general manager of iHeart and they’re several stations in the Tampa market and we walk into this restaurant that’s just empty, but it’s supposed to be one of the best restaurants in Tampa. And we get to the front desk and I said, “What radio station do you listen to?” She’s like, “I don’t listen to the radio. I have my music with me. I listen to what I like and to podcasts.” And so on and so forth. I said, “Wow, but if you had to pick a radio station that you loved, which one is it?” And she was like, “Oh, 101.5.” I said, “Do you know any of the DJs on that station?” And she mentioned somebody right off the bat. I said, “It’s funny, you just said you don’t listen to the radio, but you specifically know the DJ on 101.5 in Tampa.” And he and I looked at one another and just laughed. So I posted something on Instagram and Facebook last week, a quote from a consultant to radio stations, and it was very, very simple. People don’t eat at McDonald’s, people don’t listen to the radio. Yet they do both in droves.

Chris Dreyer:

That’s funny. And they do. Who hasn’t went to a McDonald’s drive through or listen to the radio? And you go to a party, you go to a game, they’re putting it on, it’s just always… That audio is there, it’s present.

Gary Sarner:

And if you ask somebody it’s point-blank, “Do you eat a McDonald’s?” Most people will say no.

Chris Dreyer:

That’s true.

Gary Sarner:

Because it’s not the proper answer to give. I’m not eating that crap food and I’m not listening to free radio, but my God, I’ve proven for 36 years that they do because nobody spends good money for bad marketing.

Chris Dreyer:

That’s true, that’s true. The only entrepreneur I can think of that will freely admit to eating at McDonald’s every day is Warren Buffett.

Gary Sarner:

And the same steakhouse on Friday night.

Chris Dreyer:

Yep. So I want to get to investments here and talk about impressions. So TV, and correct me if I’m wrong, radio may be the same way. They’re measured by CPMs, cost per a thousand impressions. And I had an interesting conversation recently with a firm out of California and they were talking about shifting their TV budget over to OTT, which is streaming, your Netflix and your Hulu. And Hulu came up and I was looking at the CPMs and it was $60 to $80 CPMs. I don’t know what TV is, but even if it’s $10, it costs six times as much to advertise on Hulu. And it got me thinking about radio. Do you happen to know the CPMs? The amount of impressions and impressions are different. The audio impressions that you get even as a comparison to TV.

Gary Sarner:

So first off, I do not use any OTT product in any market across the country. And yes, I’m the radio guy, but I do TV and billboards also, and I wouldn’t use OTT and I don’t do streaming audio either. The reason, and by the way, the cost per thousand on radio, if your agency isn’t getting it done for you under $5 a thousand, it’s time to take a look at what you’re doing. But why don’t I use either of those OTT or streaming products? To me and what I have found to be successful over the years, you want to reach an audience over, and over, and over. Now we’re talking about law firms. We’re not talking about selling a cell phone, but for law firms, nobody needs you. So you’ve got to build a brand, they’ve got to know what you do, and they have to know how to reach you other than those three things in your commercials, nobody really cares until they care. And that’s when you look great because then they’re going to Google.

Chris Dreyer:

Right. Makes the SEO guy look great where the attribution’s murky, oh, we got a conversion. So I’ll agree with that. The thing that I’ve noticed is, and let me tell you my own experience, Gary. So recently we went to national trial lawyers, we went to the Lowe’s in Miami, and I happened to get an Uber and I had an Uber from the Lowe’s to the Four Seasons. It’s about a 20-minute drive, maybe a little bit longer. And I was going to meet my good friend James Helm of Top Dog Law. And in that drive, in that 20 minutes, I heard Anidjar, Levine four times. So first, and you already alluded to it earlier, can you speak to repetition for radio versus TV? And it seems like when you get on TV, you’re going to see four PI ads and then it’s like the next commercial break. But I heard Anidjar within a 20-minute drive four times

Gary Sarner:

On the same station?

Chris Dreyer:

Same station.

Gary Sarner:

So I’m going to assume that you were listening to the top 40 station here in Miami called Power 96, which is the most coveted radio station for personal injury lawyers in South Florida. I happened to work there for about 26 years. So Mark and I tried many, many different things and Anidjar and Levine is going to be celebrating 10 years with me, or I’m going to be celebrating 10 years with them next week.

Chris Dreyer:

Congrats.

Gary Sarner:

And we have built… Thank you. We have tried many things that didn’t… It wasn’t that they failed, but how do we reach the audience over, and over, and over again to where Anidjar & Levine is the first thought, not the second, not the third. They don’t even have to really go to Google. They know it and they type in Anidjar & Levine. Now granted, nobody could spell it. He’s probably bought every name spelled 26 ways so people could find him.
But we own features and sponsorships, and what we do different than everybody else in the radio world is we build programs to own assets that nobody else will ever be able to touch. So repetition is the most important thing. Separation on radio and television, that’s becoming harder and harder because legal is now the number one local advertising category across the nation on television and radio. And these guys are duking it out left and right, break by break, trying to separate themselves. And no different than Google, you got to have your LSAs, your GMBs, your PPC, and your SEO because if you’re lost in any bit of that line, you’re not known. So you’ve got to do the same thing on radio, on TV, on billboards. I was on Ken Hardesen’s podcast about three months ago and I said it, “I don’t care what you do, if it’s SEO, if it’s PPC, if it’s billboards, if it’s radio, if it’s TV, but whatever you do, you better own it, and you better do it right, and you better have the right partner or it’s not going to work the way you need it to. But more important than that, you must have patience.”

Chris Dreyer:

I want to talk about the owning it, right? And I’ve seen this more and more and I want to talk about economies of scale, and I see this everywhere. For example, Alexander Shinara, if he just bought a handful of billboards, those billboards may cost X, but if he buys 3000, they’re going to be significantly lower. Does the same apply for radio? Hey, I’m going to buy just a couple segments, but you go big and then does it drive down the CPMs? And it seems like instead of dabbling a toe into it, you need to own the market. We heard Glen Lerner, who I know you’re good friends with Glen too, talk about being one of the top TV guys. Is that the same strategy? Does that fall in the same vein for radio?

Gary Sarner:

Without a doubt. I mean at the end of the day, the more you’re going to spend, the more you’re going to be able to get. But when you deal with radio or TV stations on your own, they are going to sell you what they have available to sell. When you do it with me and my team, we build exactly what you need to drive the frequency in the campaign on the stations that we’re going to be on. And this is the hardest part, but I have to work really hard on this with my clients. If the stations won’t give us what we want and know that works, they’re not part of the buy and we tell them, we’ll give them the opportunity to come back next year, and you got to stick to it. Because every broadcaster in America wants that legal money, but if you don’t buy it right, you will get lost in the shuffle every single time.

Chris Dreyer:

Well, talking about buying it right? I want to go back to my story because there was a second part of my story on this 20 minute drive, this 20 minute Uber where I’m the passenger and I happen to hear a competitor, I hear Morgan & Morgan’s ad. Now the interesting thing about this that really just blew my mind was I look at thel panel, the display for where the station, but whose name was on it?

Gary Sarner:

Anidjar & Levine.

Chris Dreyer:

Anidjar & Levine. So even though Morgan was speaking, it was Anidjar ad on the front panel. I just thought, wow, first of all, couldn’t believe that and it just dilutes out their message entirely, even if they were to spend a similar amount on that station not to own the panel.

Gary Sarner:

So we own over 250 RDS scrolls across the country for our legal clients. To me, my thoughts, when you drive down I-95 or any highway in America and you see billboard, after billboard, after billboard, after billboard to me, they all get lost in the shuffle. But as you’re driving by, my clients own the scroll and most of them them are exclusive.

Chris Dreyer:

Wow.

Gary Sarner:

Some of them are shared. The urban radio stations across the country found a niche with the RDS. But when I go into a market, I know exactly what’s available and if the RDS is already purchased, and it’s generally a law firm that has it, a lot of copycats out there, but they don’t know how to back it up with the audio. To beat the Morgan and Morgans because you can’t outspend Morgan and Morgan, but you better outs share them or they will win every time hands down. So that screen to me and to our clients across the country is a one-on-one billboard. Whether you’re the driver or a passenger in an Uber, I had your eyes locked at some point, your drive was 20 minutes. The typical consumer who drives themselves is driving an hour and a half a day. A day. So if there are six breaks in an hour and a half, let’s call them eight minutes each, do the math there. You’ve got a lot of time on the screen for people to see who you are, what you do, and how to reach them. And oh, by the way, you also drove by 48 Billboards of Lawyers.

Chris Dreyer:

The ultimate goal in radio advertising is to own the entire dial in your local market. That means you can place ads on every station and get every demographic, but that requires loads of cash if you don’t know what you’re doing. So talk to someone like Gary.

Gary Sarner:

You get one avatar. Well, that’s what we need to own then. And we build a strategy to own that in the market. Now, will it take longer to make it work when you drill it down? 100%. Because if you could go wide and you have the budget to build a brand, to get your name out, to get what you do out, to get your call to action out, it will move faster. It will move faster.

Chris Dreyer:

I love the targeting capabilities and you do have to find that avatar. John Barry talked about his avatar. He had a very detailed strategy. I really appreciated his explanation of that and there’s so much that goes into that in terms of strategy and not wasting spend. The other thing that I wanted to talk to you about was kind of this flywheel concept. And I’ll use an example from me first and then I’d like to hear an example from you. For me, for SEO to work best, you need a good content strategy, you need good branding, you need maybe some PR will help your SEO strategy and all of these other marketing channels can compliment SEO as opposed to maybe just doing SEO on its own. With radio, it seems like billboards are kind of the yin and the yang, but what can compliment that flywheel for radio?

Gary Sarner:

Most people that’ll listen to your podcast are going to be familiar with Seth Bader at Bader Scott. And Seth launched a huge campaign in September of ’21 and saw tremendous growth at the end of the year, August ’22. But he said to me, he’s like, “Most of my leads still come from Google.” I’m like, “Of course they do. The average person today isn’t going to see an ad on television, hear an ad on the radio or even look at a billboard and say, oh my God, I need to call Bader Scott.” So I said to him, “Why don’t you call 15 people that signed up last month from LSAs?” He’s like, “Okay, that sounds like a great way to learn what’s happening.” And I said, “First, you’re going to thank them for hiring your firm. Make sure that their treatment, they’re feeling well, they never get to hear from the owner of the firm.”
And then I said, “Just ask them one question. I know you got to us via Google, but had you ever heard or seen Bader Scott before?” 9 people, 9 of the 15 said, “I can’t get away from you on the radio.” 3 said “TV”. 3 said, “I see your billboards.” Well, Bader Scott owns, I want to say 11 or 12, 12 RDS screens on the dashboard exclusively. And he shares on three of the urban stations, which had people on before he entered into radio. And I was like, “Seth, your marketing dollars are working, your leads are going up, your case counts are going up all exponentially. So to sit and really try and dissect what’s moving people is hard to do, especially when we look at intake. If it comes in off of a phone number from the website, what’s going to happen? Intake’s going to go, oh, it came from Google. So the reason you want to have that vanity number is to help them remember who you are.” So it all works together. I help you, me, and if the client actually looks deeper into what’s happening with their clients after the signup, if you own something, it’s working. If you don’t own something, you’re getting lucky.

Chris Dreyer:

You can’t just dabble. I speak with so many attorneys and say, “Oh, we tried TV but we tried it for a month.” Or “We tried this and we tried it for two months.” Even SEO, “We tried it for four months and our SEO agency wasn’t any good.” Like, what? You have to build momentum. You have to be memorable. You have to have consistency and that consistency builds because if there wasn’t this time component, then everybody would be doing this and then it would just be this auction base and the prices would be skyrocketing. So first of all, I’m glad that the you had the information on the cpm. I guys, I want to just point out less than $5 CPMs. If you were going to do that on Hulu and they had a $50 CPM, you would get 10 times the impressions. That’s per a thousand impressions, 10 times for the same investment on radio.
So I’m not paid to be Gary’s salesman, I don’t get anything, but I mean there’s a lot of power to that. But I also want to switch over to podcasts. We’re doing a podcast. We have, I don’t know, 20, 30,000 downloads per month. It keeps growing. In the podcast space, when I looked to advertise, you’re looking at $25 minimum CPMs, but there’s some unique capabilities in terms of targeting because you have certain maybe demographics and certain users may listen to certain podcasts, it’s audio. So where does radio compare to podcasts? Have you seen any success for legal on that side?

Gary Sarner:

So for Camp Lejeune, we did run terrestrial radio and streaming podcasting together because there was targeting, and there was a way to find veterans through first and third party data from the broadcast companies. There were obviously a lot more leads that came in from terrestrial, but the cost per lead was a little less on the podcasting, but the cost per signed up case was better on the terrestrial. I don’t really like the cost per thousands that they have in the podcast and streaming space in audio. But more important why I don’t go there often.
I want to follow the audience over, and over, and over again. Now, I can’t sit here and tell you that if you listen to X, Y, Z station and there’s a hundred thousand listeners that you’re going to reach a hundred thousand people month in after month out. But I know the avatar to that radio station and I know that we’re going to be able to reach 90% of the audience every month and they’re generally going to be the same. But your podcast, if you want to buy a hundred thousand impressions other than buying a live read inside this podcast where Chris Dreyer does an ad before it, you’re rotating people. And what’s the optimal number of times to reach somebody in streaming audio? We don’t know yet. And oh, by the way, here’s something that nobody talks about. You’re a guru. I’m not a guru when it comes to the internet, but this is an IP address right?

Chris Dreyer:

And Gary’s holding up-

Gary Sarner:

My mobile phone.

Chris Dreyer:

… His mobile phone for the audio listeners.

Gary Sarner:

And we’re going to make believe my coffee cup is a smart speaker in the house. Those are two different IP addresses. What percentage of people do you think own both pieces of equipment?

Chris Dreyer:

Geez, I have no clue.

Gary Sarner:

It’s over 60%. Yet the podcasters, the streamers, all the companies haven’t figured out how to separate these two. So let’s say we frequency cap. I want to reach a hundred thousand African Americans, 18 to 34, 10 times each. That should be 10,000 people, right? Well, guess what? If 60% own both, I’m not reaching a hundred thousand people because they can’t separate that. And the next month I want to buy the same thing. You can’t reach the exact same people. Now why is that important in the personal injury space? Because repetition matters. They need to know who you are, what you are, invite them. Something Nicky Love at CJ spoke about the other day. You better ask for the type of cases that you want. And she’s so right. You have the opportunity to invite people to do business with you. Same thing in SEO and PPC. You get to write your copy, you get to write what’s there, ask for the business that you want to do. Now it might be a smaller caseload that you end up taking in, if you want to go after trucking, but guess what? The case values are probably going to be higher. And it all depends upon your office and the way you run your business and what you want.

Chris Dreyer:

I love all that. Being intentional. It also helps with where it goes back to the avatar and understanding who your ideal buyer is, and that helps maximize all your marketing spend. Most individuals listening are not going to hit this threshold of even considering diminishing returns, right? Most aren’t going to invest that amount. Are there any indications to where maybe I’m buying too much radio? Maybe I need to tone it down. How does that play in? And maybe you have a unique answer there.

Gary Sarner:

I have never ever seen it. So there’s playing offense and playing defense. Both are important in every event in life. So if you can afford to play defense on radio or television, you’re cock blocking your competition from taking a piece of inventory that you should have. Now, most radio or TV stations are not going to pick up the phone and say, “Hey Chris, I’ve got more for you.” Yet, every broadcast group I deal with, the first thing I say to them, before we ever get into any type of negotiations, “If anything opens up that was already sold, I need to be your first call, not your second, not your third.” And I will tell you we’re probably at 90% and generally, generally the people that I work with across the country end up picking up those pieces because if they don’t, the lowest hanging fruit in the broadcast world are attorneys.
So they sell them this feature with nothing else behind it. And guess what? They’re on 6, 7, 8, 10, 20 times a week and they’re not making any noise. But when you add it on to what we are doing, because what we do, there is a ton of frequency. We’re stopping somebody else, which I call an ankle biter, the guy who you were talking about before, or girl who said, “I tried this, I tried that, I tried this, I tried that and it didn’t work.” Give you an example. And you look at some of these major firms all doing different things, radio, television, billboards. They started 15, 20, 30, 40 years ago, and it was easier. 40 years ago there were three TV stations, boom, you were done. Or radio. But they step on the gas and guess what they never have done in all these years?

Chris Dreyer:

What’s that?

Gary Sarner:

They’ve never let off the gas.

Chris Dreyer:

It’s true.

Gary Sarner:

The biggest firms out there, the ones that all speak at the conferences, and talk about their billion dollar firms. Now there are trial lawyers that do amazing, amazing stuff, but they’re getting some of these cases from the marketing firms who have great trial lawyers as well, maybe not a specialty. But they never stopped asking people to do business with them. The ones that come in and out will always be coming in and out until they find the right pro. And it’s not necessarily always me or you. There’s a lot of great people in our industry that are great vendors to law firms, but those who will do it best will generally lead these clients in the right direction. But it goes back to one thing, if you have no patience, you will never win.

Chris Dreyer:

I couldn’t agree more, and I couldn’t help but think of our own agency when you were given these examples. One of the agency Mastermind members asked me how we continued to grow. And I said, “Well, we spent X amount on Facebook ads last year. Now we did double. We’re going to two podcasts a week instead of one. For Google ads, we spent, let’s just say $160,000 next year we’re going to spend $240,000.” And it’s just more attention because we haven’t hit those diminishing returns. And that’s how you just reach. And a lot of times you think you’re oversaturating but in reality, maybe you’re only hitting a small percentage of that individual and you just need to keep peppering them. Couldn’t agree more with the growth mindset. And Gary, what’s a market currently that you don’t have like a big major market?

Gary Sarner:

I don’t have San Francisco.

Chris Dreyer:

Okay, let’s start there. San Francisco, I’m going to have you to put your CMO hat on, you know the legal space here, and I’d just like to see where your brain goes, right? Because you have a tremendous amount of experience in legal. You got a mid-size firm and they’re going to say, “Hey, we’re going to really blow it up. Here’s 10 million, Gary.” What are you doing with this firm? What are you doing to try to reach, it’s a single event PI, they’re wanting to get more standard PI cases. What comes to mind when you hear that?

Gary Sarner:

Well, the first thing I ask them, are they happy with their website and their SEO agency? And that’s always the first thing, whether the budget’s $5,000 or $10 million. Because today your home is not your office. Your home is your website. And if they don’t have someone like you doing their website, getting the content on there, building it out right. City, by city, by city within their municipality, you can’t win no matter what you do outside of it. So once that answer is yes, I will first go to radio, and why over TV? I’m going to ask you a question. Where do car accidents happen?

Chris Dreyer:

They happen on the road in the car.

Gary Sarner:

Do you have a TV in your car?

Chris Dreyer:

Nope. Unless maybe you’re stationed at the charging with your Tesla. That’s about it.

Gary Sarner:

Now, a slip and fall happens where?

Chris Dreyer:

In the store.

Gary Sarner:

And hopefully you’re not leaving the store in an ambulance. How do you get home?

Chris Dreyer:

In the car, right? In the car. Your main mode of transportation.

Gary Sarner:

So I will sit there and I will tell you time, after time, after time, you could own your market faster with radio than you can with television. And if you think you’re going to compete on TV with the Morgan & Morgans, you are not. These guys spend, forget what they buy. They spend millions and millions of dollars on their creative. Whether you like it or dislike, it doesn’t matter. It’s to be remembered. So I would sit there and say, you put me in San Francisco with a personal injury law firm with a $10 million budget. I would say a good 20% of that needs to first go towards their website and the SEO. They probably need another 15% to 20% in PPC, and then they need to put the rest into radio, TV or billboards to try and own it. But if it was me, it’s going to radio and we’re going to build something magical and special that no other firm in San Francisco would ever have the opportunity to own. 10 years with Anidjar & Levine, okay, 10 years next week, he’s never canceled one thing. On a feature or opportunity that we had, and we’ve opened up in the last six years, outside of South Florida, we went to Jacksonville, Fort Myers, Naples, Orlando, Tampa, and every year the budget grows because the business grows.

Chris Dreyer:

Well said, well said Gary, what’s next for ROI360+? And then where can people go to get in touch with you?

Gary Sarner:

So we are on our way to TBI in San Diego in March, and I have my first time on stage. First time I’m so excited.

Chris Dreyer:

Nice. Congrats.

Gary Sarner:

Thank you. Growth of the agency. We like your book about niching, which I didn’t even realize I had done. We’re looking to work with just amazing people in the personal injury, mass tort space across the country. One thing we do in most markets, we are exclusive because as an agency and the buying power that we have with all the media companies, we get offered stuff first and it’s not fair to go to one and not the other. So I work with firms on an exclusive basis, 95%. We’re looking to grow in 2023 from 18 markets to 38 markets, and by the end of 2024, the top 50 markets across the country, owning the radio, driving the business, and doing great work with amazing people. At the end of the day, it’s all about really caring, and our team cares about each and every client. I will tell you that I am probably the most accessible person in the media world. Everybody knows who knows me or follows me. I post my first cup of coffee every day between 2:45 AM and 4:00 AM If I’m lucky, I get to sleep till 4:00. I could be reached on my cell anytime. 954-560-6371, Instagram, ROI360+ or Gary Sarner. I post on both of them. Facebook, same thing. LinkedIn, I’m accessible like you are Chris, we’re everywhere.

Chris Dreyer:

Thanks so much to Gary Sarner at ROI360+ for everything he shared. It’s time for the takeaways. Let’s roll to the PIMM Points. PIMM Point number one, up first, radio has an incredible ROI because of the cost per thousand impressions is so low. When you compare the CPMs of radio versus new shiny mediums like OTT, it’s so much less expensive. Check it out for OTT, you’re looking at a minimum $20 per thousand impressions. On radio it’s way lower.

Gary Sarner:

The cost per thousand on radio. If your agency isn’t getting it done for you under $5 a thousand, it’s time to take a look at what you’re doing. We reach the audience over, and over, and over again. We build programs to own assets that nobody else will ever be able to touch.

Chris Dreyer:

PIMM Point number two, advertise where your consumer congregates car accidents happen in the car. Put your ads in the car. Traditional radio is perfect for this. We love this channel for this exact reason. And if you can get the display ad to go along with it even better.

Gary Sarner:

The typical consumer who drives themselves is driving an hour and a half a day. A day. So if there are six breaks in an hour and a half, let’s call them eight minutes each. Do the math there. You’ve got a lot of time on the screen for people to see who you are, what you do, and how to reach them.

Chris Dreyer:

And PIMM Point number three, branding compliments everything. Every channel you have will be more effective with a strong brand. Yes, attribution to a brand is murky, but click rates on SEO will increase and so will your conversions.

Gary Sarner:

You want to reach an audience over, and over, and over. You’ve got to build a brand, they’ve got to know what you do, and they have to know how to reach you. Other than those three things in your commercials, nobody really cares until they care. And that’s when you look great because then they’re going to Google.

Chris Dreyer:

I’m Chris Dreyer. Thanks for listening to Personal Injury Mastermind. If you made it this far, it’s time to pay the tax. No, I’m not talking about taking your cash like Big G. I’m asking you for a five star review on Apple or Spotify. Leave me your review and I’ll forever be grateful. If this is your first episode, welcome and thanks for hanging out. Come back for fresh interviews where you can hear from those making it rain. Share the love with your friends and your enemies. Until next time.